"Self" lifelining up ladders

Geoff R

New member
A question - of those of you who self life-line up ladders, what method (and equipment) do you use;  and my main interest - what method would you self rescue ?? 

Sorry if this subject is covered elsewhere but I could not find anything using search

thanks   
Geoff
 

Cave_Troll

Active member
the fun thing is that Petzl keep chaning their minds.
At one stage you could climb the ladder with a Basic jammer clipped through the top two holdes to stop the cam inverting.
Then they said you shouldn;t do that but you could use a mini traxion.
now they'll probably try and sell you a ASAP
 

Cave_Troll

Active member
the other question is, are you soloing caving up ladders or are you with your mates?
if with your mates, its probably safer to lifeline the first one up from the bottom
 

Geoff R

New member
Ha, points taken  :)   

Please assume a "fixed" lifeline and use of normal caving kit and that all the small party want to self-lifeline up. Ive tried my mini-traxion on a long cow attached to srt harness D, with the cowtail over my shoulder to back lifeline.  A spare HMS seemed to solve for self rescue if the ladder failed..... but I'm after better ideas .....

What do others do  ??  Can you use a Petzl hand jammer instead, attached via its top holes ??  Do people regularly use just their belt instead of a harness ?  Do people attach their jammer device, direct to a belt or harness and choose not to use a cowtail  ??    Thanks. 



 

Stu

Active member
Geoff R said:
A question - of those of you who self life-line up ladders, what method (and equipment) do you use;  and my main interest - what method would you self rescue ?? 

Sorry if this subject is covered elsewhere but I could not find anything using search

thanks     
Geoff

Cowstail and (now) mini traxion. As for self rescue, Stop on half bobbin, take loop from control end (dead end) of rope and place into crab which is then attached to crab of cowstail. Stand up using rope to stand in (pulley effect). Lock off Stop, take off traxion. It's times like these when people with too long cowstails rue their choice.

 

Cave_Troll

Active member
just about the only reason i use ladders these days is
+ Expedition  - at least one person stays above
+ Freshers - Its a good idea to have at least one person with full SRT kit "in case" so last one down rigs the line for SRT
 

AndyF

New member
danthecavingman said:
I use my shunt on a short cowstail.

Yep, a shunt does it for me. Its a damn useful bit of kit for pitch appraoch/rigging too, as you can go back and forth to an exposed pitch head easily... It is also you "spare ascender" too...

pity I lost mine.. :(

 

cap n chris

Well-known member
Perhaps this is a useless observation: but, if you've got a harness, cowstails, jammer(s) etc. why are you using the ladder? I can understand taking a ladder to enable other group members to negotiate the pitch but if just one person has SRT kit then use that as a method of ascent/descent and lifeline the rest of the group on the ladder.

The reason I mention this is that by the time you've equipped yourself with enough bits and bobs to easily self-rescue from self-lining on a ladder in the event that the ladder actually fails, you're pretty much kitted out with an SRT rig anyway. I'm not a great fan of using jammers near ladders for self-lining after getting my croll gnarled up with the wire on my ladder whilst ascending solo. The air got so blue that everything magically solved itself after a while.
 
D

darkplaces

Guest
I'm with Cap'n - why people still use ladders is beyond me even for small pitches. The thing that gets forgotten is what you do to get yourself out of the total ladder failure situation.

So you have rigged your ladder, you rig a rope next to it. You self life line down, while self life lining up, the ladder totally breaks and your left dangling on the rope. What do you do? Because of the ladder you didnt bother to bring the rest of your SRT kit to self rescue. Yet if you had brought all your SRT kit why did you use a ladder? If your solo caving or everyone is at the bottom still your (all) in trouble. Hence in my view ladders create a false sense of security and life lining ladders an even worse sense of security.

I'v used my croll (I know its not recomended) to travel up a rope while climbing old miners ladders up a rise. I concluded to myself at the time, its better then nothing and I could actually stop for a break and sitdown.
 

Geoff R

New member
Could we slow down a minute good people;  surely there is some place left for ladders; whether it makes sense to ever  "self"  lifeline or not is maybe for a little later .... 

If you start a new thread of Ladders v SRT,  Im in favour of SRT every time !

On topic,  I was only asking what people use to self lifeline up ladders, what they carry for self rescue. 

Do people actually use full SRT kit - Im doubtful.  :confused:
Does anyone use just a belt, jammer (and maybe a spare HMS for emergency) or perhaps a little more, perhaps an improvised harness, perhaps adding a cowtail ??   
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
Geoff R said:
Do people actually use full SRT kit - Im doubtful. 

I did this morning but that was because there happened to be a ladder rigged by another party so I used both - standard SRT kit AND ladder (what luxury!). Having learned a lesson previously, however, I make a specific point of keeping my body sufficiently away from the ladder so that the croll and ladder don't get entwined.

However, normally for short pitches I don't bother with full SRT kit; my personal fave is my "ultra lite weight kit" (put simply this consists of a sling, a croll, a tibloc and a second lite weight sling + 6mm dynamic connector. I have an elastic neckband plus a tiny krab too. This is a "fits in your pocket" SRT rig. Normal sling creates improv harness to which is connected croll with a small HMS (used for the abseil down earlier) and dynamic connector rope to which is connected tibloc and lite sling for footloop. Top of croll is held in place by elastic neckband + tiny krab. 7mm rope finishes off the gear.

So, I suppose the answer is that, yes, I do use SRT kit albeit a massively stripped down version.
 

martinr

Active member
c**tplaces said:
You self life line down, while self life lining up, the ladder totally breaks and your left dangling on the rope. What do you do?

Make some prussick loops (using the laces from your wellies)
 

Hughie

Active member
c**tplaces said:
I'm with Cap'n - why people still use ladders is beyond me even for small pitches.

'Cos it's a dam sight faster, and way less garbage to tote around. My opinion, anyway.
martinr said:
c**tplaces said:
You self life line down, while self life lining up, the ladder totally breaks and your left dangling on the rope. What do you do?

Make some prussick loops (using the laces from your wellies)

Absolutely. What do you do if an integral part of your srt kit/rope fails? If a ladder fails, best practise says that you've still got a rope to play with.
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
Are we getting off thread?

Ladder/line isn't much faster than SRT; however, assuming you're only using a ladder on its own then, yes, it is quicker and lighter to carry for a single short pitch. However, having watched my 18month old ladder go "ping!" at Swildon's I no longer trust them and wouldn't be happy using one without a line - and by the time I've packed a ladder, line and various bits of gubbins I might just as well not bother with the ladder and use the line and gubbins instead!

Mind you, it's a free country (ha!) so you can do whatever suits you best. I don't think there's going to be a resolution of this topic.... but it's nice to have a good debate anyway.  ;)
 

graham

New member
Someone ought to start a thread about what is the maximum amount of kit failure that can be "experienced" before a fall becomes inevitable.

Or indeed the minimum.
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
Usually I find that as long as I'm not accompanied by anyone called "Tony", everything's just hunky-dory and ladder's work AOK.
 

Brains

Well-known member
My only use for ladders these days is to take novices on a trip such as P8 or Giants. I would take my full SRT kit plus a pulley jammer kit - a taxion is only a traxion, but a pulley jammer is 2 krabs, a jammer and a pulley, IMO far more versatile. I will rig the pitch as for SRT then add the ladder to it afterwards. I will then belay the punters up and down using a direct belay Stop, and abseil the pitch myself. On ascent I will "self line" on my croll but have everything else with me just in case (but the stop off the maillon as the handle does catch rungs a treat). Before climbing I fasten a fellow caver to the bottom to keep the rope tight and running free in the croll. My deputy and I are both SRT proficient, so failing catastrophic rope failure we are up the pitch and away for beer and crisps...
 

graham

New member
cap 'n chris said:
Usually I find that as long as I'm not accompanied by anyone called "Tony", everything's just hunky-dory and ladder's work AOK.

Hmm he rang me earlier today to discuss what kit we are taking to France.  :-\
 
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