Access Changes to caves controlled by Charterhouse Caving Company?

ian.p

Active member
It's come to my attention thanks to a member of my club who is diligent enough to read the CSCC meeting minuets that the age limit for visiting caves controlled by CCCC is being raised from 16 to 18.
Can anyone confirm that this is definitely the case?
if this is the case does anyone know:
1) why consultation and pre warning on this issue has been pretty much non existent.
2) why its being done in the first place? i understand its because of a revised legal opinion regarding litigation is this the case and in which case whos legal opinion is it based on?
3) who decided this was necessary the landowner or the CCCC?

I have been taking groups of 16-18 year olds to GB cave for over a decade. It is one of the most appropriate caves to take young people who are enthusiastic about caving. Loosing it for this purpose would be an absolute tragedy. My understanding is that the Wessex Caving Club and the Cheddar Caving Club are raising an objection at the next CCCC meeting this Saturday. If this change in access really is due to come in then I hope that we can add many more letters of objection from every caving club in the Mendips and the rest of the UK this really would be not just an incredible loss to UK caving but also an outrage that a body that is meant to represent cavers (that come in many different ages) has kept this major change in access so quiet.
 

ian.p

Active member
Having just checked the CCCC website it states:

1. No-one under the age of 18 years is permitted in the caves

How on earth has this been passed so quietly? Caving it seems is the only sport in the country completely hell bent on wiping itself out. i for one intend to completely ignore this access restriction until someone gives me a bloody good reason to take any notice of it. Given the 0 cases of under 16's suing the landowner in all the time the access agreement has been in place the 0 recorded cases of an under 18 person willfully causing damage to the cave and the presence of a comprehensive BCA insurance scheme that already covers the caves owner for litigation i look forward to being given one.
 

PeteHall

Moderator
I've got a feeling this did come up briefly on here some time ago (though I can't find it now), but was possibly lost in the heat of another access debate, so thanks for bringing this up in its own thread.

Below are the points raised by the Wessex relating to the increased age limit:
Dear Charterhouse Caving Company Ltd

Please find below a matter than we would request you consider at your next CCC Ltd AGM, which we believe is on April 14th 2018.

We note that your recent secretary?s report includes that statement:-

?the minimum age limit for entry to the caves becomes 18 years?


The intended change will cause issues for the Wessex Cave Club as we have many members under 18 who will be affected by this.  For example, one member, who has been an active club member for the past 4 years, has been looking forward to visiting the CCC Ltd control caves upon his 16th birthday later this year.  Naturally he will be extremely disappointed to now have to wait an additional two years.


We understand the change is due to the revised legal interpretation regarding the validity of third parties (parents in this case) signing waivers on behalf of others. As such we would like you to consider the following three issues:-


1) Is the revised legal interpretation correct and thus is it absolutely necessary to change the age limit from under 16's to under 18's?


2) More fundamentally, why are waivers required to visit to the Caves where access is controlled by CCCLtd? We understand the use of waivers was agreed with Somerset Wildlife Trust as part of the access arrangements. However the access arrangements were agreed many years ago and do not seem to reflect SWT's practices elsewhere.  For example SWT has other reserves, including Ashwick Grove, Black rock, Chancellor?s Farm, Draycott Sleights, Lynchcombe, Middledown and Ubley Warren, which contain caves and sites of karst and mining interest. SWT has informed the caving community that visits to these may be made without seeking formal permission provided the Countryside Code and the simple rules applicable to the reserve are observed. (See Mendip Underground 5 for details). Therefore it would appear that SWT will allow access to caves within their reserves without the need for waivers, permissions or age restrictions and one would assume they are happy to rely upon the modern legislation to protect them from any liability.  If this is their current position then now is a good opportunity for CCC Ltd to review the access arrangements with them, with the aim of simplifying them and removing as many restrictions as possible to allow the widest enjoyment of these unique resources.


3) Finally are Somerset Wildlife Trust aware of the age restriction and are they happy with this, given that the CCC Ltd caves are the only ones in the country where under 18's are not permitted in caves on wildlife trust land?

The Cheddar Caving Club will certainly be supporting this position and calling for the CCC to take the opportunity to remove "as many restrictions as possible to allow the widest enjoyment of these unique resources".

I hope and encourage all the other member clubs of the CCC to support common sense and the BCA guiding principle:
Where caving bodies have control of access delegated to them by the owners, such access should be obtained and granted as freely as possible for all responsible cavers, within the terms of those agreements. When obliged to make new agreements, the appropriate body should endeavour to ensure that this freedom is maintained or improved.
 

The Old Ruminator

Well-known member
Following along the lines of Longleat Estates and presumably something to do with an arcane section deep in the litigation laws. I suppose all young cavers will now have to bring a pub identity card to get down GB. Yup more bloody red tape and bullying from an access committee. They are getting us Mendip folk a bad name.
 

alastairgott

Well-known member
I recently let a lovely family into peak from the south somewhere, we got talking before I threw them in the entrance, and they were saying that they'd be affected greatly by this change.
They have a fleet of Scouts ready to turn 16 and eager to go caving in some of the more interesting systems of Mendip. And already have numerous scouts between 16 and 18.
As the Peak District would be 4hours away, this would be an option (and we briefly exchanged words to the effect), but logistically not as good as Mendip.

I'd imagine that this small window into one small scout group in the south can be replicated over most of the South of England. The resources to take the individuals a further distance (North) may not be available, and the already stretched goodwill of those volunteers involved in the scout group may be eroded.
 

BradW

Member
Ian, I see from your profile you are a SMCC member. SMCC are part of Charterhouse CC. What is SMCC's position on this? I presume you have asked?
 

Wayland Smith

Active member
ian.p said:
Having just checked the CCCC website it states:

1. No-one under the age of 18 years is permitted in the caves

the presence of a comprehensive BCA insurance scheme that already covers the caves owner for litigation i look forward to being given one.

If the people controlling access state "no under18."
Then you knowingly take under 18s in.

I would think it very likely that insurance would reject a claim.
This probably needs confirming from the underwriters.
 

Oceanrower

Active member
You've made that up, haven't you?

Like the old " if you haven't got an MOT, your insurance is invalid"

It's rubbish and always has been.

Why would an agreement between a landowner and an individual have any bearing whatsoever on an agreement between an insurance company and a client?
 

BradW

Member
Wayland Smith said it was likely a claim would be rejected, and that it needed to be checked with the underwriter. As the underwriter decides whether a payout is in order at the end the day, then checking with them seems like a sensible idea. Anyone else will simply say "it's likely" or "not likely" - as they can't be completely sure.
 

Bob Mehew

Well-known member
Some while ago I answered a ukCaving thread, see https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=22192.msg280847#msg280847  with the comment " I would add to Nick's contribution that I doubt if a waiver signed by a parent would have much value under the Human Rights legislation. "  Basically I consider that there are good legal grounds that such a permit has no value either if the under 18 signed it (look up voidable contract) or whose parent  signed it (look up human rights).

I have been told that the decision to do away with 16 to 18 permits was due to both limited use (2 in 20 years) and probable lack of legal value in mitigating liability and was made by the Directors of CCC Ltd.

Additionally one needs to be clear about what is being done on the grounds of safety and liability, of conservation and of legality and hence what role(s) the permit system has. 

I have recommend to my Mendip club that the topic is complex and need careful consideration and be discussed at a further SGM of shareholders rather than try and do it rushed when few (if any one) understand what is being done.

PS re insurers see http://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=legal_insurance:faq_2018-1.pdf FAQ 89.
 

nearlywhite

Active member
Just to reassure people that the BCA Youth and Development group are aware of this and are doing what we can to protect the interests of cavers under 18.

We will see what happens this weekend and will update people once it is clear what is happening.
 

andrewmcleod

Well-known member
GB Cavern is currently the cave with the most stringent requirements of any cave I have been in (if you don't count the leader-led ones). You have to be over 18, you have to fill in a permit, and you have to have done at least 4 other caves before being allowed in...
 

The Old Ruminator

Well-known member
andrewmc said:
GB Cavern is currently the cave with the most stringent requirements of any cave I have been in (if you don't count the leader-led ones). You have to be over 18, you have to fill in a permit, and you have to have done at least 4 other caves before being allowed in...

And you certainly must not fly a drone in there ! :spank:
 

martinr

Active member
andrewmc said:
GB Cavern is currently the cave with the most stringent requirements of any cave I have been in (if you don't count the leader-led ones). You have to be over 18, you have to fill in a permit, and you have to have done at least 4 other caves before being allowed in...

Yet that hasn't prevented you from visiting GB
 

Tommy

Active member
andrewmc said:
GB Cavern is currently the cave with the most stringent requirements of any cave I have been in (if you don't count the leader-led ones). You have to be over 18, you have to fill in a permit, and you have to have done at least 4 other caves before being allowed in...

And it's not even that good!
 

martinr

Active member
Topimo said:
And it's not even that good!

Yeah, it's shite

DSC_0557.jpeg
 

martinr

Active member
NewStuff said:
If people struggle to get in there and see it, it might as well be.  :icon_321:

You're entitled to your opinion but was it necessary to tell me to **** off? Just asking
 

andrewmcleod

Well-known member
martinr said:
andrewmc said:
GB Cavern is currently the cave with the most stringent requirements of any cave I have been in (if you don't count the leader-led ones). You have to be over 18, you have to fill in a permit, and you have to have done at least 4 other caves before being allowed in...

Yet that hasn't prevented you from visiting GB

Well it kind of did for quite a while because every time we had a weekend in the Mendips there would be one person who hadn't done their four caves, so we couldn't go to GB. We could do OFD, Aggy, Daren, Swildons, Eastwater, Peak Cavern, Giants Hole, Gaping Gill, or virtually any other non-leader cave in the country, but not GB. Is it really that special that experienced parties with less experienced members will destroy it?

Anyway, I'm going odd-topic: there is no good argument for an age limit on the CCC caves, I can't see any reference to it in the GB conservation plan agreed with NE and SWT, and disclaimers are only any good if you run out of loo roll anyway so the whole thing is nonsense.
 
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