CO2 Monitor

Alex

Well-known member
Anyone know where I can get a CO2 monitor that doesn?t mind getting moist? Basically I have a sandy dig going and I am excavating very close to the ground. My breathing rate was quite high but I was exerting my self quite a lot. Before I get others joining me on the dig and using up the air quicker I am wondering if I can get a CO2 monitor that I can take down that will beep when the levels increase to dangerous levels.

Will those house holds one do, when I say damp I dont mean it will dragged through a stream or anything just the normal dampness of a dry cave.
 

SamT

Moderator
If I where you, I'd safe yourself the bother and the worry. You'll almost certainly get high readings and probably scare yourself.

If you can work there for a while before things get hard work, then whats the worry. It's not as bad as CO, and as soon as you move away, you recover. So as soon as you get short of breath and get a banging headache, definately time to go to the pub.

There seems to be a hell of a lot of attention being given to CO2 recently, and in certain circumstances, is becoming detrimental. Seems to me, that all the fuss has started the moment CO2 monitors became available to cavers.

Before that.......  :confused:

Has anyone ever died in a limestone (i.e. no culverts/coal/shale etc) cave due to CO2 poisoning.
 

khakipuce

New member
I believe that it is the presence of CO2 that makes you feel like you are suffocating, rather than the absence of oxygen. So it's other gases that are a real concern as they don't make you feel short of of breath and so you pass out before you realise there is a problem
 

Les W

Active member
SamT said:
Has anyone ever died in a limestone (i.e. no culverts/coal/shale etc) cave due to CO2 poisoning.

At last some sanity in this whole CO2 debate thingy.  :bow:
 

Aubrey

Member
SamT said:
Has anyone ever died in a limestone (i.e. no culverts/coal/shale etc) cave due to CO2 poisoning.

Yes - as mentioned above.

However there is a lot of evidence that the concentration of CO2 is increasing in some caves. We have started measuring the levels using accurate meters so we can then get an understand what is happening and what dangers there may be.

The immediate danger is not from suffocating from carbondioxide but from the natural human reaction of near panic and "out of here" which affects even hard fit cavers when exposed to high concentrations of CO2. The chances of an accident are greatly increased under these circumstances because the person is not totally in control of their actions. I have witnessed this several times and it is almost unbelievable when you see it.
Rescue would be near impossible if someone did injure themself, because the high CO2 would also affect potential rescuers and they would be unable to exert the muscle power to move a casualty.

Even at slightly lower concentrations of CO2 cavers loose coordination and do unexpected things. Last week we were measuring the level in a local hot spot when one of the party completely missed the obvious way out and later walked straight into the cave wall. He became very anxious to get out after only 14 minutes underground. The maximum concentration of CO2 encountered was only 3.4%.  (This person has been doing 6-7 hour working trips every weekend).

With the onset of colder weather we expect the CO2 problem to diminish but also expect it to be back next summer. The build up in digs and other confined spaces which is generated by cavers breathing is unlikely to be any different throughout the winter months. It is should be very localised and easily relieved by leaving the dig.

So far there are only a few caves which are badly affected for long periods but I can assure everyone that visiting them is best avoided.
 

Alex

Well-known member
Ouch almost 300 squids, I really just want one for peice of mind. Because it is hard to tell if its all in your head or the CO2 levels really are getting dangerous. I feel if I know the air levels are safe I will get more digging done.

But if as SamT says it will just be beeping all the time anyway it could have the opposite effect. hmm....

Paniking would not cause an issue here as there is nothing to fall down or even trip up over.
 

nickwilliams

Well-known member
Bear in mind that if you get an electronic detector intended for use by confined spaces workers it will by default have the alarm levels set to the officially recommended worker exposures. These are likely to be way below the limits which you will want to set for cave digging and so the meter will constantly be in alarm mode when you are using it. You can usually silence the alarm (temporarily, at least) but that somewhat defeats the object of having the meter in the first place.

You can adjust the alarm set points on most newish meters but you'll need the relevant software and connecting kit from the manufacturer to do it.  Hence, even if you can get a meter cheap, the cost of the connecting kit and software may be a factor. FWIW, the BW (Honeywell) kit costs about GBP 40 and the Draeger one is about GBP 150.

Nick.
 

Aubrey

Member
Peter Burgess said:
Aubrey, did you not say at Churchill that a reasonably reliable CO2 detector is a caver? Or words to that effect.

Yes - If you are still alive you have not had a fatal dose!  :LOL:

After being aware of a few experiences of high CO2 you get to recognise the symptoms and realise what is going on.

The simple test is a burning match. A flame needs about 17% oxygen to keep burning so if a match will not burn you should not be in the area.




 

Roger W

Well-known member
IIRC, miners' safety lamps detect 'firedamp' or methane rather than CO2.

?300 sounds a lot, but lots of cavers seem to be willing to pay that sort of money for a bright LED light these days...

And while Neil Moss has been quoted as a fatality due to CO2 poisoning, he was trapped in a narrow rift where, if I remember aright, it was his own breathing that raised the C02 to dangerous levels.

Alex, I'm not sure where "here" is, but I suspect there could be a problem even in a nice level cave with a smooth flat floor if the disorientation resulting from CO2 poisoning prevented the caver(s) from finding their way out...

That's my (not very helpful) five pence worth...    :coffee:
 

Joel Corrigan

New member
I know it's not exactly what you want but we've used oxygen meters beyond sumps.  You (or someone smarter than me, anyway) can assemble them for peanuts compared to industrial ones & if you're certain that co2 is the problem then it should give you an idea.  We use them for rebreathers & if you pack it in a little pelicase then it's pretty robust.  Suggest posting something on the CDG forum for info on building it if you're interested. 
 
H

hippie nixon

Guest
few month back i was working down a hole erecting scaffold for the new tyne crossing tunnel and foe health and safety we had to have a dector down there with us only thing was no one know how toread it ect and one of the lads felt dizzy soon after the dector started flashing and beeping so we high tailed it out of there. site management arrived with masks on and headed down with a diffrent more accurate one.


turns out batterys were low  :unsure:
 

SamT

Moderator
hippie nixon said:
turns out batterys were low  :unsure:

:LOL: :LOL: :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:

Wasn't Neil Moss's demise as are result of the gases from his carbide, either way, not really relevant.

I am concerned, as are a lot of people I speak to, that this whole CO2 'issue' is perhaps getting more attention than it deserves.

Fine, monitor some caves where folks think there is an issue, but only after a few years of monitoring, when a trend has been identified can any meaningful conclusions be drawn.

who's to say these caves haven't been half full of CO2 for time immemorial, its just these days, we've got a nice gadget to confirm it.

That'll put the cat amongst the pigeons. duck and cover
 

graham

New member
SamT said:
who's to say these caves haven't been half full of CO2 for time immemorial, its just these days, we've got a nice gadget to confirm it.

I'll leave it to others to comment on the death of Neil Moss, but this is simply plain wrong. When we were forced to close G.B. for one summer a few years back, this was because people had complained of breathing difficulties which were subsequently confirmed to be linked to high CO2 after a measuring device was taken in. No such reports were known for this cave in the fifty-sixty years since it had been first explored.
 

Aubrey

Member
SamT said:
who's to say these caves haven't been half full of CO2 for time immemorial, its just these days, we've got a nice gadget to confirm it.

Similarly I dug at the bottom of Cuckoo Cleeves every week for several years in the 1970's without any bad air problems. Recent reports such as the one in the following link prompted me to borrow a meter to investigate if the reports were real.

http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php/topic,4963.msg111624.html#msg111624

The readings we obtained showed potentially lethal concentrations just below the entrance pitch (we did not go much further) so things are obviously getting more dangerous.

We are trying to work out if there is any way of minimising the levels of CO2 and also trying to make everyone aware of the potential problems associated with bad air before there is an incident.



 
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