A new knot for caving ??

M

mudman

Member
Just tried tieing this on a krab. Not sure I like it though. It seems to me that although simple, it relies on the rope crossing correctly in the knot.  Also if you grab one of the parts emerging from the knot and move it up and down towards the knot and then down again, it loosens and can come apart. When tightened again, it appears that the other sides starts to progress up towards the knot and eventually would dissappear into the knot. (I didn't get that far decided by then I don't like it).
If this behaviour is because I tired it wrong, then that's another reason to not like it.
 
R

RichardB1983

Member
Although simple, I had a quick go last night and if you accidentally start by passing the rope the opposite way through the krab at first - and then continuing with the rest of the knot as shown, then it seems to become a cow hitch I think - except with the two ropes crossed over. Yes of course all knots should be tied correctly - but it does seem to be a simple and easily made error.

The other thing to think about is that that with the double version - with 4 rope passes through the karabiner - it prevented me from opening the gate on a medium sized krab.
 
SamT

SamT

Moderator
I think the idea is that dont need a to take a krab/mallion. i.e. it looks like their local caves are equipped with chains and rings, so makes for a lightweight trip sans krabs.

Nice knot to know if you find yourself in such a situation, but not really much use in british caves where the anchors installed need a krab anyway, thus you may as well use the tried and tested knots such as fig 8 and alpine.
 
MarkS

MarkS

Moderator
This seems an awful lot like a solution in need of a problem (with the possible exception of when there are rings to rig from and you want to avoid using krabs, as pointed out above).
 
NewStuff

NewStuff

New member
They look much easier to tie to me.

Now, I know you all just thought that fig8, bunny ears, barrel/scaffold knots etc are all easy to tie, but we can do it in our sleep, blindfolded because we have done it so many times. Now, think about it from a newbies perspective, these would be (potentially) much easier to learn, and seemingly about as effective as the the ones we use.

Just a thought, I'll find out tomorrow how easy and effective they are.
 
bograt

bograt

Active member
NewStuff said:
They look much easier to tie to me.

Now, I know you all just thought that fig8, bunny ears, barrel/scaffold knots etc are all easy to tie, but we can do it in our sleep, blindfolded because we have done it so many times. Now, think about it from a newbies perspective, these would be (potentially) much easier to learn, and seemingly about as effective as the the ones we use.

Just a thought, I'll find out tomorrow how easy and effective they are.
Click to expand...

This suggests that they need not be familiar with the current tried & tested ?, is this wise??

I have never had cause to familiarise myself with 'Bunny Ears', anyone I am unlikely to rig for will have to be happy with Fig.8, Fig.9, or Bowline, including variations on the theme ---.
 
SamT

SamT

Moderator
NewStuff said:
They look much easier to tie to me.

Now, I know you all just thought that fig8, bunny ears, barrel/scaffold knots etc are all easy to tie, but we can do it in our sleep, blindfolded because we have done it so many times. Now, think about it from a newbies perspective, these would be (potentially) much easier to learn, and seemingly about as effective as the the ones we use.

Just a thought, I'll find out tomorrow how easy and effective they are.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but can you list me an advantage over a fig 8.

FIG 8..

pros - strong enough, easy to see if its right, tried and tested, familiar to all, easy to learn.
cons - ermm  :confused: (wait - cant be tied round a fixed ring???)

New knot (johnny knot/cow know whatever)
pros - can be tied to a fixed ring with no opening (not common in caves), seems strong enough in a static pull test.
cons - can be tied incorrectly, not commonly known, not 'tried and tested', may not be secure if loosely dressed, 4 loops of rope through opening causes trouble with possibly opening krab gate (though I'm not sure why this is a problem).

Just doesn't add up to me as enough reasons to be arsed to learn this new knot.
 
NewStuff

NewStuff

New member
Seeing as I've not tied it yet (Later today if the rain holds off), I have no idea of the actual, real, rested pro's and con's, ease of use, etc. It looks easier to tie from the video and .pdf, but that could just be the chap practicing and good drawings.

Rest assured, I'll make sure to stress them as much as I can, dress them badly and otherwise and give them as much of a "real world" test as I can on the tree outside my house.
 
R

RichardB1983

Member
SamT said:
4 loops of rope through opening causes trouble with possibly opening krab gate (though I'm not sure why this is a problem).
Click to expand...
It is an issue if, as someone was suggesting upthread, it could be used as a cowstail knot instead of the scaffold/barrel knot
 
Wayland Smith

Wayland Smith

Active member
It amazes me that people are rushing to propose using a new knot
(because it's new so must be better)
Replacing knots that have been used by generations of cavers and which have been the subject of extensive research and practical testing.

So a Fig 8 knot takes a few min to un-tie, that means it was secure and was not going to slip in use.
How secure is a knot that comes undone with just a shake of the rope?
(The answer is you don't know when you are hanging from it, you just hope that you tied it correctly.)

 
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