[gmod]These posts were split from the "CSS Locks" Topic in the Mendip section: https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=28149.50[/gmod]

NewStuff said:

It certainly keeps me out, I'm not interested in jumping through hoops that simply don't need to be there. If the place is really interesting enough, there are always ways to open gates *without damaging them*.

Click to expand...

I find with enough determination I can squeeze past most of them! Dog hole extensions in Devon being one (I had the key but fancied a challenge).

Owl hole, locked with a Derbyshire key, but not mentioned in the guide book, after spending 1.5 hrs driving and 1 hour rope faff to get into the place I was not giving up because of no gate! Squeezed over the top of it. Why is it gated by the way? As it's Derbyshire key its not to keep cavers out then? But no one else would be able to get in there, the entrance is 20ft off the ground and the so called bolt ladder was far too slippery to climb, hence abseiling through bushes from above. That gate is not needed!



There was a big massive gate in France, not all the floor was solid and was diggable, so just dug under it, though I put it all back afterwards. Again no mention of massive gate in the guide book only a fence, and I had drove quite some distance to get there.

Alex said:

Owl hole, locked with a Derbyshire key, but not mentioned in the guide book, after spending 1.5 hrs driving and 1 hour rope faff to get into the place I was not giving up because of no gate! Squeezed over the top of it. Why is it gated by the way? As it's Derbyshire key its not to keep cavers out then? But no one else would be able to get in there, the entrance is 20ft off the ground and the so called bolt ladder was far too slippery to climb, hence abseiling through bushes from above. That gate is not needed!

Click to expand...

I must agree that, having visited a few years ago, that gate is probably a bit hardcore given the already-difficult access, but it's long before my time, so I'll have to defer to the previous generation's reasoning for now. I just checked the PDCI entry, probably updated since COPD, and it does say two spanners required - though not what size! Until I have further info, I've amended the text to 'adjustable'!

For up-to-date access info, I would always suggest checking the online resource, as the book is now eleven years old.

https://peakdistrictcaving.info/home/the-caves/dove/owl-hole

Heh - a two spanner cave.  A bit like a two pipe problem!

pwhole said:

Alex said:

Owl hole, locked with a Derbyshire key, but not mentioned in the guide book, after spending 1.5 hrs driving and 1 hour rope faff to get into the place I was not giving up because of no gate! Squeezed over the top of it. Why is it gated by the way? As it's Derbyshire key its not to keep cavers out then? But no one else would be able to get in there, the entrance is 20ft off the ground and the so called bolt ladder was far too slippery to climb, hence abseiling through bushes from above. That gate is not needed!

Click to expand...

I must agree that, having visited a few years ago, that gate is probably a bit hardcore given the already-difficult access, but it's long before my time, so I'll have to defer to the previous generation's reasoning for now. I just checked the PDCI entry, probably updated since COPD, and it does say two spanners required - though not what size! Until I have further info, I've amended the text to 'adjustable'!

For up-to-date access info, I would always suggest checking the online resource, as the book is now eleven years old.

https://peakdistrictcaving.info/home/the-caves/dove/owl-hole

Click to expand...

The problem is that, unlikely as it seems, there were some unwelcome visitors a few years ago - non- cavers who'd managed to get in but luckily had not found the chamber called Crystal Pallas.  Hence the diggers felt they didn't want to be responsible for damage to some really unusual formations so, reluctantly, decided to lock it with a "Derbyshire key" system.  As it was a quick job with items to hand, it ended up not a standard Derbyshire gate but one which requires 2 spanners.

The usual system in Derbyshire is for cavers to ALWAYS carry at least one large adjustable with you on any intended trip - that way you're normally OK.  (A 2-spanner gate really is unusual!)  All the Derbyshire cavers know about this and it was thought that cavers from other areas had caught on, which is why a large adjustable spanner is called locally "a Derbyshire key" - the idea being that cavers who know the system can always gain access but, hopefully, it keeps non-cavers out of deep mine-shafts, which is one of the main risks. 

It's relatively cheap, doesn't require keys being cut and passed around or locks changing and missing nuts are relatively easy to replace if they go walkabout.  The majority of our local landowners and tenant farmers know the system and are happy with it - it's what DCA always promoted to keep things safe where you have deep mine-shafts, or adits with shafts in them, in an area popular with walkers.  Even our major landowning estates here are content the system works and only a very few owners now insist on a "proper lock".

Point is that's it's a local solution which works in Derbyshire because the local owners know it and are familiar with it and, word of mouth around the district between farmers helps becuse they understand.  It may not translate to other areas where the local owners have become used to proper locks.

The problem is that, unlikely as it seems, there were some unwelcome visitors a few years ago - non- cavers who'd managed to get in but luckily had not found the chamber called Crystal Pallas.  Hence the diggers felt they didn't want to be responsible for damage to some really unusual formations so, reluctantly, decided to lock it with a "Derbyshire key" system.  As it was a quick job with items to hand, it ended up not a standard Derbyshire gate but one which requires 2 spanners.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the explanation but how did they get there? I guess they could have brought there own 20ft fixed ladder or something or it was not always as slippery climb as it is now? But if they are that determined they are going to get past the gate as is demonstrated you can squeeze over the top of it anyway. As for getting into that chamber there is another final barrier which is a 20ft pitch down so how would jo public do that? Not like they could bring another ladder to that point. So it's a pointless gate and must have pissed a few people off over the years going for an easy trip and find out there's that gate there. It was no bother for me except for some bruises, but please, it would be great if the DCC could get rid of it to save other people a pointless trip from out of area, or print an up to date guidebook (one with an index would be handy too, the current book is lacking in many aspects). Also and more importantly what if someone squeezes over it and find they can't get back, it CANNOT be opened from the other side. I found it harder squeezing back out again due to the angle, grade 5!

BTW I don't have an adjustable spanner by the way as I do 95% of my caving in Yorkshire, and I don't think I have been down any cave in Derbyshire that has needed the Derbyshire key, so I was not aware you are meant to carry around one all the time, for the unexpected gates. I assumed most gated entrances were mines. I do have a spanner set (do they work?).

I've no idea how they got in there - jetpacks?

The end pricing/print cost ramifications of producing an up-to-date guide book are well understood at DCA and have been since the last one was printed, and it is under constant discussion. But it's also a lot of money to chuck at something with an uncertain outcome (at present). The world of publishing, paper and digital, has changed considerably since 2010. Rest assured we do review all access arrangements for caves and mines constantly, and this one will be discussed. But bear in mind all this work is voluntary, and repairs/modifications need arrangement and people available.

In terms of up-to-date access information, the online version of COPD is available at https://peakdistrictcaving.info/. Only the book description text is not here (as we would like to sell a few more books yet), but the access info, augmented with maps, 3D models where available, nearby sites etc., is all there, and where Derbyshire keys are required for access, they are noted.

As for the issue with the squeeze over the gate, well, if someone squeezes over a locked barrier and then can't get back out again, then by legal definition, it's their fault. I'm sure DCRO would get them out, if a callout was properly arranged (probably just using two adjustable spanners), but we can't apologise for that particular aspect of the situation. It's a Grade 0 if you don't try it.

From https://peakdistrictcaving.info/home/the-caves/dove/owl-hole

ACCESS
Derbyshire key required.

No parking near the cattle grid as this is tractor turning space, two adjustable spanners are needed for the gate in the upper entrance which may require a ladder to gain access.

Click to expand...

pwhole said:

As for the issue with the squeeze over the gate, well, if someone squeezes over a locked barrier and then can't get back out again, then by legal definition, it's their fault. I'm sure DCRO would get them out, if a callout was properly arranged (probably just using two adjustable spanners), but we can't apologise for that particular aspect of the situation. It's a Grade 0 if you don't try it.

Click to expand...

Not so certain about that. As one could aruge it's locked barrier that should not really be there in the first place, especially if that cave is on access land (I don't know if that's true or not)? End of the day it would be a gate you guys installed trapping someone because you left a inviting space over the top, could be considered your responsibility (or the diggers). Legally unless you install signs telling people to keep out, that sort of thing then you can't claim they are trespassing and are they are just using their right to roam. It could be the same as if a farmer removes a stile on a public footpath and you are forced to climb the fence and injure yourself, who's to blame there? It's a legal grey area at least though I am no expert. And even if not, do you want to risk wasting DCRO's time over a gate that serves no real purpose or at the very least ruin someone's trip?

P.s. People from Yorkshire are too tight to buy one adjustable spanner let alone two lol.

Anyway pint taken about the website I will be sure to check (now I know it exists) before any trips to caves I have not been to in the Peaks, in the future.

*point taken even, but a pint sounds like a good idea!

The government don't currently recognise caves as being part of access land (but that debate has been done to death elsewhere on this forum) - so they are trespassing, whether there are signs or not. Meanwhile, landowners are legally required to maintain access to footpaths.

Alex said:

End of the day it would be a gate you guys installed trapping someone because you left a inviting space over the top, could be considered your responsibility (or the diggers).

Click to expand...

I might put that one on a t-shirt. Looking at the photo it's clear that a gate matching the passage profile would have been a right bastard to make, and expensive, and to date you're probably the only person to have ever brought the matter up. So, legally, I'm pretty relaxed

As for arguing whether not it should be there or not, it's not for me to say personally, but it is at the moment, and you definitely need two adjustables. They're not that expensive - I've got two staring at me right now and I'm skint

See attached

Volente non fit injura
A court would no doubt take the view that as this person climbed a cliff or abseiled down to reach the gate, and then squeezed over it before getting trapped inside, they were fully responsible for their own actions and had not stumbled into that situation by accident.

If Alex got stuck on the other side of this I would gladly drive approx 40mins to get a spanner out and let him out with a grin on my face...

If he were even luckier I might have been half that time away from him.

I had a beer with a friend last night at a lovely roasted lamb/meat smelling pub, the Devonshire arms, peak forest.
And my friend was talking about a rescue where some people had "hand over hand" descended water icicle entrance shaft, one had been able to get out but had to call rescue to get the other out. 105ft water icicle vs "20ft" slightly sloping owl hole. Hmm I'm going to hazard a guess that it could be done without SRT or ladders!

Stood and watched three lads in normal clothing and two lights between them climb hand over hand out of Garlands. Last one struggled so his mates pulled him up clinging to the rope. We did find a broken hand torch a little way down Crabwalk. At least my SRT rescue skills weren't needed that night...

alastairgott said:

And my friend was talking about a rescue where some people had "hand over hand" descended water icicle entrance shaft, one had been able to get out but had to call rescue to get the other out. 105ft water icicle vs "20ft" slightly sloping owl hole. Hmm I'm going to hazard a guess that it could be done without SRT or ladders!

Click to expand...

Yes, I heard that story many years ago whilst on a trip to Water Icicle. I was told that it was a father and son, one climbed out (son I think) and the other fell from the rope after climbing up a short distance. Any DCRO old timers remember it?

mch said:

alastairgott said:

And my friend was talking about a rescue where some people had "hand over hand" descended water icicle entrance shaft, one had been able to get out but had to call rescue to get the other out. 105ft water icicle vs "20ft" slightly sloping owl hole. Hmm I'm going to hazard a guess that it could be done without SRT or ladders!

Click to expand...

Yes, I heard that story many years ago whilst on a trip to Water Icicle. I was told that it was a father and son, one climbed out (son I think) and the other fell from the rope after climbing up a short distance. Any DCRO old timers remember it?

Click to expand...

There were a pair of friends who did this many years ago and, surprisingly, after the rescue they went on to join Orpheus Caving Club.  They were from the benighted south of England and had always wanted to go caving but didn't know how to go about it, never heard of guide books but were enthusiastic. 

One carried on for a while but eventually went back to his formerly hobby of bell-ringing; the other stuck with it, went on foreign trips with us and is now a respected Senior Member of Orpheus.

Even 40 years ago if you were from somewhere like London it was quite difficult to find out anything about caving in Britain.  You needed to go to a public library and look for books on caving and, if you were really lucky, the library might have something - no web sites then!  My local library in Surrey in the 1960s had books on caving but they were things like the exploits of De Joly and Casteret in France - nothing on Britsh caves and certainly not caving guide books.

Jenny P said:

  My local library in Surrey in the 1960s had books on caving but they were things like the exploits of De Joly and Casteret in France - nothing on Britsh caves and certainly not caving guide books.

Click to expand...

If Casteret was being used as a "how to", I'm surprised they weren't found naked, as well as having climbed down hand over hand! 
Mind you, didn't do him any harm did it!

From a trip yesterday going into Owl hole, from someone I know

Tbh, the bolt on the gate is so weathered (and awkward to open with a spanner) i ended up unscrewing it by hand

Click to expand...

Time to fix it, or save money etc and just remove it (please).

Was meant to be a question mark after fix it, was not meaning to be demanding.

Alex said:

From a trip yesterday going into Owl hole, from someone I know

Tbh, the bolt on the gate is so weathered (and awkward to open with a spanner) i ended up unscrewing it by hand

Click to expand...

Time to fix it, or save money etc and just remove it (please).

Click to expand...

Thanks, I'll pass the message along to those who were digging.  They've not been in for a wee while.