carbon dioxide in dig

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Huw Groucutt

Guest
so...suppose you have a deep dig, guess its about 12metres now, vertical at first then under a lip then riftyish, then at the bottom starting to go off horizontally. Total clay fill, absoloutly no air flow. The air is ok for the first person digging but after that very hot and panting, sometimes headaches aswell, - seem like classic CO2 symptoms.

So, how can we aerate the dig? Propsosals range from the optimistic 'bellows and a bit of pipe' up to petrol generators. Considering the vertical difference and the amount of carbon dioxide and dust which needs to be taken out (sucked out? or air blown in?). The dig is only about 30 metres from a strong draft so fumes from a genny shouldnt be a problem.!

Any suggestions welcome
 

SamT

Moderator
Does sound like CO2 - we had the same in one of our digs - couldnt light a lighter to light a fuse :blow:

Is it a surface dig

If so then get yourself a genny and get some sort of extracter fan system going ala titan

If not be carefull about using a genny underground (never heard of it myself). You may be near a draft - but where will the draft carry the fumes. Will they settle in still areas. Carbon Monoxide is far more dangerous than CO2.
 
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Huw Groucutt

Guest
Nah its not a surface dig, its in Carno Adit, which is a manmade tunnel carrying a strong draft (most of the time) to or from Ogof Carno further down the tunnel. Our dig is the first cave feature along the tunnel. Should be able to set up a genny in the genny in the tunnel and just make sure its the right side of the dig depending on the draft.

Only trouble is lugging a genny 1.2km along a tunnel! They used to do it every week further up the tunnel when they had a genny to power drills. You can use a wheelbarrow so guess it would be alright!
 
A

Aguacate

Guest
Many years ago WSG had a dig at the end of Pant Mawr Pot where they used a home made bellows type pump connected to a length of polythene tube - no one died.

I think there were some design notes in some of the old WSG newsletters or bulletins - I'll have a look for you if you're interested..
 

SamT

Moderator
If you are only needing a bit of fresh air to overcome the CO2 probs then I reckon a Genny/Fan is a bit overkill and the problems related with the fumes outweigh the probs with the CO2.

You should consider using hand made bellows to occasionally pump a bit of fresh air from the main adit.

Remember C02 is heavier than air and will settle in the bottom of a dig. it would be better to suck the Co2 out from the bottom and let fresh air 'Fall' into the dig from above.

:up:
 
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Huw Groucutt

Guest
SamT said:
If you are only needing a bit of fresh air to overcome the CO2 probs then I reckon a Genny/Fan is a bit overkill and the problems related with the fumes outweigh the probs with the CO2.

Hmm. I dont think fumes would be a problem as there is a strong draft in the adit taking it well away from the dig. And i think more than a bit of fresh air is needed, its basically unworkable after maybe an hour of digging, so its really holding up the dig now, and its only going to get worse by the looks of it!
 
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Titch98

Guest
And i think more than a bit of fresh air is needed, its basically unworkable after maybe an hour of digging

If things are that bad, have you considered using light-weight BA gear?
HSS HIRE do these little units, as well as other respiratory protective equipment (ie filtered air supply lines and pumps etc). Look under the "Safe and Sure" -> "Hazardous Area Working" -> "Respiratory Protective Equipment" link on HSS website.
 
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madratdan

Guest
Hello to all from Colorful Colorado!
We are working on a dig right now with the same problem you mention. We are about 50m from good air flow. We ran 3/4" black poly irrigation pipe up to the dig face. (1" is preferred, but also harder to handle and haul any distance into a cave) Since I am also a white water rafter, I own a pump that displaces a lot of air to pump up rubber rafts with. It is a 4" barrel type pump. It works well for keeping air circulating at the dig face. I also have a bellows pump, but it just doesn't move enough air to push it 50m+. If you have electrical power available, I have used a vacuum cleaner with much success. Just hook up your air pipe to the exhaust port of a Shop Vac. and turn it on. It works very well. You may also try rigging a heater fan off a car into some kind of custom made duct unit to push a high volume of air through a plastic pipe or tube. You could then use a 12v battery source for power.


Below is a link to the pumps I am referring to. The Wonder pumps are JUNK! Do not waste your money buying one. I own the 4" Carlyle and the 5" NRS model. The 4" is the way to go. The 5" is too big and bulky to haul into a cave. I realize they are expensive, but would imagine they are cheaper than BA gear.

http://www.nrscatalog.com/product_list.asp?deptid=375
 
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Huw Groucutt

Guest
cheers matratdan

Think we've sourced some pipe, just gona sort out what gadgetry to use. Other people have also suggested a car fan and battery.
 
M

mudman

Guest
And I know where you've sourced it from.....
Mind you, it has been sitting there for quite a while now.
If you dig through the pile of mud to the left as you go in. You should find an old carpet that Rob thought would be useful (wanted a nice homely feel perhaps). You can have that too if you want. Nice colour, red I think.
 

PMN1

New member
Huw Groucutt said:
Think we've sourced some pipe, just gona sort out what gadgetry to use. Other people have also suggested a car fan and battery.


Well you can carry the bloody battery!!!

None of your sneaking in early and taking all the air under the guise of further exploration of the adit!!
 
H

Huw Groucutt

Guest
PMN1 said:
Huw Groucutt said:
Think we've sourced some pipe, just gona sort out what gadgetry to use. Other people have also suggested a car fan and battery.

I will! Wouldnt want to deprive you of the helium filled bag ;)
 

PMN1

New member
[/quote]

I will! Wouldnt want to deprive you of the helium filled bag ;)[/quote]


That 'helium filled bag' contains the most important part of the digging gear - the teabags, milk, sugar and cups.

Remember the week i wasn't there, you ended up drinking black tea from cut up fizzy drink bottles.
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
Probably a stupid suggestion but I'll stick me neck out anyway...

If you're going to carry anything down there to solve the problem why not try carrying a small compressed air cylinder (like a SCUBA Pony tank)? When the air becomes stale just give a quick blast of air from the valve and continue until it becomes stale again...

Or perhaps this seems too simple and there's a good reason why you shouldn't do something like this - I expect some SCUBA expert will say it's lethal or somesuch.

It's just a thought.
 
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Huw Groucutt

Guest
We had considered that but for several hours digging with seriously little air i dont know if it is enough to be honest.

Also need to extract carbon dioxide and dust which is why i think some kind of pipe/geny/fan/battery thing is needed.

And not sure if its wise to have a compressed air tank in the line of fire of PMN1 when hes getting stuck in with the crow bar!
 

PMN1

New member
Huw Groucutt said:
And not sure if its wise to have a compressed air tank in the line of fire of PMN1 when hes getting stuck in with the crow bar!

We are perfectly safe as long as Phil is with us, if anything is going to happen it'll happen to him.
 
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