Ogof Marros, SW Wales any information on access would be much appreciated

Joshlivesoutdoors

New member
I've been wanting to visit Ogof marros in the green bridge valley (Pembrokeshire) but haven't been able to make contact with anyone in order to pursue access. Would someone be able to point me in the right direction?

I've been a resident here for many years but never got around to visiting this particular cave

All the best folks!
 

andyfr

New member
If you email the Hon Sec SWCC with your request, he will help you with this.( SWCC website will supply email address )
 

Stuart France

Active member
There's a problem with the reply above because as "Andyfr" happens to be the secretary of SWCC so he's advising someone from the community to contact himself in a needlessly opaque way - unless the real AF is being impersonated.

There's another problem as experienced cavers have asked for the key to Ogof Marros and been refused - except on escorted visits.  Andy Freem's reply (the real AF) recently to such a person contained as follows:

"The cave is on private land, has no right of footpath access or off-road parking and is not on public access (CROW) land. It is also on a busy working farm and subject to normal farmer?s concerns about uncontrolled public access. There was expressed  opinion by the farmer that the discoverers were expected to manage future access for both safety and conservation reasons, the entrance was to be gated and locked.  Access management on behalf of the landowner by SWCC was suggested to the SWCC committee within months of the discovery,  by the discoverers and with the discoverers stating they were willing to initiate discussions with the farmer. This was politely declined by the then SWCC committee. As a result access arrangements via the quite large discovery team was arranged and publicised. A bespoke email address was created and a website is being prepared with links to all the resources, information and access arrangement is under preparation. An updated definitive high grade survey is partially complete."

As it happens, it was myself that set up the first ever official access agreement with this farmer through Cambrian Caving Council for the nearby Greenbridge Cave as about the first thing I did after being elected on CCC.  The farmer was very kindly and took me for a tour in his 4x4 of all the karstic sites on his land (including Ogof Marros which was dug initially by other cavers decades ago) followed by tea and cake in the farmhouse.  He told me that he wanted to see fair and responsible access for all cavers and for the outdoors centres to caves on his land.  You could not hope for a more cooperative and enthusiastic landowner.  I can see I will have to visit him again about Ogof Marros as it is plain that the SWCC team are out of steam or beyond their competence to extend their dig and are now obstructing reasonable access to the wider caving community.


 

mikem

Well-known member
Or, he knows people will look at this reply in future years, when he isn't secretary & want an answer that still works...
 

Stuart France

Active member
I think I should try to absolve SWCC.  My understanding is that SWCC does not possess any keys to Ogof Marros for the use of its own members nor anyone else.  SWCC is not the access controlling body for Ogof Marros.

One problem is that Freem is telling one person (see above top) to apply to SWCC and he's telling someone else to apply via some vague website and access system that doesn't really exist.

I asked myself a long while back for the key and was told I could not have it and would have to apply to go on a visit chaperoned by the digging group (as it was operating then).

Basically it comes down to who you know and what they think of you, or knowing where Freem ends and SWCC begins.

I received a complaint recently from a caver of at least 30 years standing that he had been refused the loan of a key to Ogof Marros for a personal trip, i.e. not chaperoned by Freem's group.  A few conversations here and there revealed this refusal concerned the key applicant not being 'liked' rather than any question of his caving competence etc.

Basically, the defunct cave digging group needs to get its house in order and set up a reasonable and fair access system now for cavers at large, or I will endeavour to do that for them.
 

Scrappycaver

New member
Stuart France said:
I think I should try to absolve SWCC.  My understanding is that SWCC does not possess any keys to Ogof Marros for the use of its own members nor anyone else.  SWCC is not the access controlling body for Ogof Marros.

One problem is that Freem is telling one person (see above top) to apply to SWCC and he's telling someone else to apply via some vague website and access system that doesn't really exist.

I asked myself a long while back for the key and was told I could not have it and would have to apply to go on a visit chaperoned by the digging group (as it was operating then).

Basically it comes down to who you know and what they think of you, or knowing where Freem ends and SWCC begins.

I received a complaint recently from a caver of at least 30 years standing that he had been refused the loan of a key to Ogof Marros for a personal trip, i.e. not chaperoned by Freem's group.  A few conversations here and there revealed this refusal concerned the key applicant not being 'liked' rather than any question of his caving competence etc.

Basically, the defunct cave digging group needs to get its house in order and set up a reasonable and fair access system now for cavers at large, or I will endeavour to do that for them.
Some people love control hence they sit on any cave committee or panels. I would like to visit this cave but not escorted like a naughty child.

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twiglet

New member
Just an alternative opinion, but could it be that the Marros team are still actively digging the cave for further extensions and would prefer you to accompany them on working trips until they consider the project complete ?  (y)
 

mrodoc

Well-known member
Some of these comments seem a bit childish. If you are patient I am sure eventually you will be able to visit the cave. It is not going to go away. May I remind readers of this forum that quite recently a major Welsh cave  system was lost to all cavers due to the impatient behaviour of a group of selfish cavers.
 

Scrappycaver

New member
mrodoc said:
Some of these comments seem a bit childish. If you are patient I am sure eventually you will be able to visit the cave. It is not going to go away. May I remind readers of this forum that quite recently a major Welsh cave  system was lost to all cavers due to the impatient behaviour of a group of selfish cavers.
Which major cave was lost? That's news to most of us

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Ogof anghenfil

New member
Scrappycaver said:
mrodoc said:
Some of these comments seem a bit childish. If you are patient I am sure eventually you will be able to visit the cave. It is not going to go away. May I remind readers of this forum that quite recently a major Welsh cave  system was lost to all cavers due to the impatient behaviour of a group of selfish cavers.
Which major cave was lost? That's news to most of us

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I think he means Dan Yr Ogof when the showcave owner put the gate in the lakes but he only threatened to lock it.
twiglet said:
Just an alternative opinion, but could it be that the Marros team are still actively digging the cave for further extensions and would prefer you to accompany them on working trips until they consider the project complete ?  (y)
I did a trip in here a while ago and it is not that nice. Maybe the diggers could have made it bigger in places. They are scared that cavers with bang would really go to town on this place and push the chokes.
 

Scrappycaver

New member
Ogof anghenfil said:
Scrappycaver said:
mrodoc said:
Some of these comments seem a bit childish. If you are patient I am sure eventually you will be able to visit the cave. It is not going to go away. May I remind readers of this forum that quite recently a major Welsh cave  system was lost to all cavers due to the impatient behaviour of a group of selfish cavers.
Which major cave was lost? That's news to most of us

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I think he means Dan Yr Ogof when the showcave owner put the gate in the lakes but he only threatened to lock it.
twiglet said:
Just an alternative opinion, but could it be that the Marros team are still actively digging the cave for further extensions and would prefer you to accompany them on working trips until they consider the project complete ?  [emoji106]
I did a trip in here a while ago and it is not that nice. Maybe the diggers could have made it bigger in places. They are scared that cavers with bang would really go to town on this place and push the chokes.
Isn't that that goal. Place is a waste of time.

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Stuart France

Active member
First, I have learned that the Ogof Marros group have approached individuals possessing certain resources and expertise that they themselves evidently don't have.  This is with a view to digging the end of the cave.  But those other people will only be allowed in the cave to help under 'supervision' so to speak.  So yes the group is interested in extending the cave, but no they can't see how to progress it by themselves.  Needless to say, experienced and more able people don't want to be supervised.

Second, the group is said to looking at setting up some kind of proper access system, possibly a leader-based one.  It is to be hoped that any eventual leader list is a lot more widely cast than the existing group's current composition otherwise the situation will be no better than the status quo.  They could start by merging the entire DYO and Capel leader lists as a starting point for their own list.

So it's a case of watch this space (slowly).
 

Jopo

Active member
DYO has not been lost to cavers. In fact the opposite is true. Having just repaired the 'cavers gate' I can report that Ashford and James Price were delighted. Perhaps Pete meant  Carno.

Jopo
 

mrodoc

Well-known member
Scrappycaver said:
mrodoc said:
Some of these comments seem a bit childish. If you are patient I am sure eventually you will be able to visit the cave. It is not going to go away. May I remind readers of this forum that quite recently a major Welsh cave  system was lost to all cavers due to the impatient behaviour of a group of selfish cavers.
Which major cave was lost? That's news to most of us

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You obviously haven't been caving for very long and/or don't read Descent.
 
I can't remember exact details but access was lost to a newly dug site somewhere near Ystradfellte I think. Cave was gated at the landowners request with no public access on private land. Another party removed the gate and pirated the cave resulting in complete loss of access to all. I'm sure someone can point the thread out on here but I can't find it.

Dan.
 

Badlad

Administrator
Staff member
There does seem to be an endless stream of access problems and fall outs across Wales.  Lot's of reasons are given and causes blamed - I'm sure many are valid.  I suggest that there are too many access controlling bodies and management groups at the heart of the problem.  A single democratic body with a consistent and positive approach might improve matters, although I realise that the changes needed to pursue this would be difficult in the extreme.

 

Scrappycaver

New member
mrodoc said:
Scrappycaver said:
mrodoc said:
Some of these comments seem a bit childish. If you are patient I am sure eventually you will be able to visit the cave. It is not going to go away. May I remind readers of this forum that quite recently a major Welsh cave  system was lost to all cavers due to the impatient behaviour of a group of selfish cavers.
Which major cave was lost? That's news to most of us

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You obviously haven't been caving for very long and/or don't read Descent.
Is it a secret or can you name it as I don't subscribe to decent. Please enlighten us as it might be a cave I discovered.

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Scrappycaver

New member
danthecavingman said:
I can't remember exact details but access was lost to a newly dug site somewhere near Ystradfellte I think. Cave was gated at the landowners request with no public access on private land. Another party removed the gate and pirated the cave resulting in complete loss of access to all. I'm sure someone can point the thread out on here but I can't find it.

Dan.
It's a cave I helped discover and it was not a major cave so someone got there facts wrong. I was also in there when the gate was ripped off. I've been to the end 3 times and it is torturous. Feel free to try and re-open it. Also this is old news, over 5 years ago !

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