Martyn G, Jane and I visited Odin last night to begin a long-term photographic project, only to find a serious and potentially very dangerous collapse has occurred in the entrance section. We were last in a month ago, so it's fallen since then, but it would be interesting to see if anyone's been in more recently, to try and work out exactly when this happened. I know others have been in 2-3 weeks ago, so it's happened within the last fortnight, definitely. Needless to say, if it had collapsed during a trip, there could have been a death, as it's on an unprotected section.

It's right at the base of the first handline climb, approx 50 metres into the mine - the entire floor has disappeared into a crater approx 2.5m X 1.5m in size, leaving a ragged drop of approximately ten metres straight down - the walls of this hole are a very, very crumbly shale/rock mixture and are still falling in. Having a drill with us, we managed to traverse across it and just about made the climb up (trickier now with a ten-metre hole directly beneath you) to rejoin the normal route to see where it's all ended up, and - it gets worse - it's all landed right in front of the stempled passage that links to the Cartgate, and has also taken out the first two stone stemples, which are now somewhere in the pile.

Luckily, the passage itself is intact, but the heap of large deads, gravel and mud that now partially blocks it is very, very unstable, and is still moving. Therefore, the stempled passage (and, by implication the Cartgate and beyond) are currently not safely accessible.

By good fortune, the 'pit of uncertain depth' mentioned in the guide at that point is right beneath the heap of rubble, and so much of it can be safely dumped in there, once the situation has been assessed and stabilisation work (if possible) has been done. But at the moment, it's very, very dangerous, and we would recommend that folks please keep out until the relevant authorities have been informed (which we're doing right now) and the situation clarified.

For more information, please contact Martyn Grayson, DCA Projects Officer, on 0797 695 3089.

There's some photos of the collapse here:

http://www.pwhole.com/photo_galleries/private/Odin_Collapse/collapse.htm

Probably one of the most unstable places in the Peak,

Before the pit is backfilled, please check that it doesn't connect with the stuff lower down in the mine which could be destroyed.

Mark

On the official survey, it's just drawn as a short pit that terminates just under the level - I've never bothered looking into it as a result, and never fancied climbing out again if it was dodgy 'round the corner'. At the moment, it's very dangerous to check down there, as the rubble pile is slipping down it already due to gravity and slope. I always assumed the survey to be very accurate - however, we found some sections last night in another part of the mine that are marked as 'run in' on the survey, and they certainly aren't now (although not exactly roomy) - whether subsequent post-1975 digs have opened them up again I don't know, but it didn't look like they'd been dug recently.

Also, workings in and off from the roof section of the Bell Chamber (including an apparent shaft) are not on the survey either, so it may have been a less than thorough exercise - dunno really. The handline climb is not well-surveyed at all, as it's much steeper and more difficult than the map suggests, with one or two completely vertical sections, and nothing like the gentle slope one might expect on a first visit.

What worries me about this collapse is that it's in an area most would think very stable, and the frightening part is that it's right where folks would naturally drop off the handline climb to the floor - possibly it's years of that happening that's caused this. There won't be any more jumping off that anymore.

One other point to mention is the hole in the 'floor' near the top of the handline climb (after the last overhang), also seemed a little larger to me, and may connect to a rise pictured on the survey between the slope down to the stempled passage and the blockage itself. If so, that would be a similar drop, and possibly more, if that fell through. I shone my lights through it. and it's definitely hollow beneath, but we were all down by then, so no way of checking for a voice/light connection.

pwhole said:

One other point to mention is the hole in the 'floor' near the top of the handline climb (after the last overhang), also seemed a little larger to me, and may connect to a rise pictured on the survey between the slope down to the stempled passage and the blockage itself. If so, that would be a similar drop, and possibly more, if that fell through. I shone my lights through it. and it's definitely hollow beneath, but we were all down by then, so no way of checking for a voice/light connection.

Click to expand...

The internal shaft before the pitch/after the climb? Remermber a voice/ light connection from when it was  P bolted... but that was a while ago now!

Phil, everywhere Martyn goes there seems to be a collapse.  Coincidence?????

Jim - I think the old man's just getting jumpy about his bedroom getting discovered after all this time and is attempting to distract us

Brains - this rise I mean is after the pitch down, then down the slope east. Just before you'd climb up to enter the stemple passage, there's a large vein above, with what looks to be an internal shaft with stemples. I suspect this may reach up to the top of the handline climb, which in my mind now is more of a 'floating staircase'.

Any more news on this?

Not yet - I was hoping we might get an update soon, but so far, no news. With the summer being so dry, it would be interesting to see whether the backfill in the entrance level has stabilised. Trouble is, if it hasn't, there's not much can be done, apparently - though getting a JCB down the front end to dig out the original cartgate entrance and make it safe for entry would be my preferred option...

sadly it seems to be around 125m from the bus stop above the arched exit to the collapse in the end of the cartgate chamber.
It'd take more than a JCB

I think he was suggesting using a JCB to unblock the entrance to the cartgate so that people could get in to the workings from that end - not drive the digger along the cartgate to the collapse!

I know. I wasn't talking about the new collapse, but the boulder choke that forms the end of the cartgate chamber.
its possible that its 125m of rubble from the road into the system

Hang on - its only 100m from the road to the entrance of the system, so I refuse to believe its 125m from the East end of the Cartgate to the side of the road where the cart gate most likely originally came out to surface. 

The original cartgate entrance was just outside Odin Cave, albeit about 3-4m lower than current ground level. It ran in a deep trench to the original crushing circle, and when the road was built, the cartgate route was culverted over - there's a photo of it in 1943 before it was covered up completely by the bus terminus.

In 1927, John Royse sank a shaft in the gorge (at the junction with Widowers Vein) and got somewhere near the cartgate (he claims he came through the arched roof), but it appears he was still not through completely, as there are no holes in the arching at all, other than the crosscut to the Bell Chamber (or Hallom's Deep Shafte?). He also said lots of shale blocked the way - again, no shale in the cartgate, but the workings in the roof of the Bell Chamber are in shaley stuff, and we found a shaft at the back end of those going down...

That John Royse shaft eventually collapsed, and could be the source of the current blockage - I have no idea who put the large railway sleeper prop in, for example - maybe Les Salmon or someone? The shaft was less than 64 yards from Odin Cave, as I've measured the first two meers, and they just reach the start of the slope proper - that shaft was just after the first meer (ie 32 yards). I've got photos of all this stuff, and some of it is on Mine Explorer.

So I don't think it would be that big a job to excavate down into the mouth of the gorge and find the cartgate level again. The Bell Chamber is most likely to hold a connection chance. Also, Knowlegates Sough level must still be intact under the road...and why doesn't anyone ever check the Widower's Vein entrance...?

But how much of this would involve digging on NT land?  And what would they have to say about it?

All of it.

I can't speak for the NT obviously, but I did make the suggestion to someone there (only half-jokingly) all the same, as I don't think it's that far-fetched, personally. Leaving it to rot and collapse even further is a far worse option. What happens when the whole lot starts going? Then you have a 200m deep, evil chasm right next to their prettiest showcave, with no way of ever filling it in safely.

my survey says its 125m from the bus stop to the end of the cart gate and another 50 m to the entrance pbolts.

Tim

Whereabouts on the surface do you think corresponds with the cartgate blockage? The first large pile of rubble, or the second?

Also, the crosscut from the cartgate is meant to be on Widowers Vein, though at a lower level to the gorge. I've never been far west along that passage, as I was believing the survey too much, which says it's blocked. But in the gorge on the right, looking uphill, there's clearly a lower-level fissure below the current Widowers Vein that's been deliberately blocked with rocks and a large tree trunk.

If that, or the higher-level entrance could be shown to connect internally with the lower-level passage (perhaps via a collpased winze), that might produce another route into the cartgate from surface? I have a plan of John Royse's dig on paper from an old PDMHS article by Chatham - he worked on the shaft, and went down there with Royse. It's bang on the junction with Widowers vein, marked with a big 'X'...

PW

this is what i'm working from



i think the end of the cartgate chamber is somwhere level with odin cave

Well, the Gank Mouth, point 0 when measuring the meers, is right bang on the edge of the cave - the large auger mark that signified the title is still visible. So it's likely the old entrance was also thereabouts.

The 1920 photo in the frontspiece of Jim R and Trevor F's bulletin shows a much deeper trench at the mouth of the gorge, and early accounts describe entering a low arch then along a passageway with a boarded floor. That could well be the section on the other side of the blockage, and the current cartgate combined.

What still puzzles me is exactly what the arching's for in the cartgate. If it's too hold back deads from earlier stopes, why aren't they accessible from higher up? It can't be merely decorative. The parallel passage behind is in solid rock, so it wasn't to keep those separate. Endlessly theorising...