You may be familiar with 'The Complete Caving Manual' which I was asked to write for Crowood Press back in 1996.  The manual is now out of print and the publishers have requested a new edition.  Unlike the original this will be in full colour which means sourcing new photographs.  I'd like to say they have provided a budget for these new pictures but unfortunately (much to my frustration) that is not the case so all that's on offer is the satisfaction of seeing your work in print and a deal on cheap books to sell your mates. 

We need pictures of every aspect of caving which includes:  surface landscapes (UK and abroad), classic passage shapes, formations, caves in flood, cavers using different clothing and equipment, vertical caving, diving, digging, camping, expeditions, novices etc, etc..... 

Please drop me an email if you can help or would like to know more: andy@mendipnet.co.uk or give me a call on 01934 741427

Have you tried browsing online galleries for suitable images, and contacting the image owners for hi-res copies and permission to use? I realise that 95 percent or more of such images are usually not that special. 100 percent of mine fall into that category.

You are welcome to use any of my fine pictures of dust particles and general mistiness.

As per ttxela, any of my photos on the flickr / ukcaving gallery of mine, may be used, should you consider them worthy........... ("pastcaver")

I have sent Andy a PM on this, and I hasten to point out that I'm not having a go at him but at his publishers. A word of warning to anyone who might be tempted by the 'satisfaction' of seeing their work published...

The MD of Crowood doesn?t work for the ?satisfaction? of seeing books in print, he earns a no-doubt respectable salary and drives a smart car. He doesn?t expect his staff to work for free, and he doesn?t go to paper suppliers, or to repro houses, or printers, or to binders, or delivery drivers, and ask them to provide goods and services for nothing because if he did they?d tell him where to go. So why does he expect to get photographs ? surely one of the key elements of a successful book ? for nothing?

Before you happily send your pics in just stop and think of how much money you have spent on not just acquiring those images, but in honing your skills to the extent that you have photos that Crowood might consider publishing. That means cameras, film, processing, flashguns, bulbs, batteries and so on (to say nothing of caving gear and petrol/travel, which is money you'd probably have spent anyway). Then there's the time you spent, not just underground but at the scanner/computer or whatever.

Once something is acquired for nothing that becomes its value. Publishers keep trotting out this 'no budget for photos' line and getting away with it because mugs are prepared to give away their hard-won images for the 'satisfaction' of seeing their work on a page.

If Crowood don't succeed in getting decent images for nothing then they'll either have to come up with some money, or resort to picture libraries (who certainly won't give away pics for 'satisfaction'), so my advice would be to hold off for a while...

I think it is for Andy to decide how he wants to run this show, maybe taking on board the points Tony makes. I know that for the low budget books I have published, with a narrow field of interest (and therefore limited sales), if I had not received images freely from friends to use, I would never have started in the first place. If a culture develops which says 'my photos will cost you ?x", then small-scale specialist books will not be so easy to produce.

Tony_B said:

I have sent Andy a PM on this, and I hasten to point out that I'm not having a go at him but at his publishers. A word of warning to anyone who might be tempted by the 'satisfaction' of seeing their work published...

The MD of Crowood doesn?t work for the ?satisfaction? of seeing books in print, he earns a no-doubt respectable salary and drives a smart car. He doesn?t expect his staff to work for free, and he doesn?t go to paper suppliers, or to repro houses, or printers, or to binders, or delivery drivers, and ask them to provide goods and services for nothing because if he did they?d tell him where to go. So why does he expect to get photographs ? surely one of the key elements of a successful book ? for nothing?

Before you happily send your pics in just stop and think of how much money you have spent on not just acquiring those images, but in honing your skills to the extent that you have photos that Crowood might consider publishing. That means cameras, film, processing, flashguns, bulbs, batteries and so on (to say nothing of caving gear and petrol/travel, which is money you'd probably have spent anyway). Then there's the time you spent, not just underground but at the scanner/computer or whatever.

Once something is acquired for nothing that becomes its value. Publishers keep trotting out this 'no budget for photos' line and getting away with it because mugs are prepared to give away their hard-won images for the 'satisfaction' of seeing their work on a page.

Click to expand...

Yes, I agree entirely.

Tony_B said:

If Crowood don't succeed in getting decent images for nothing then they'll either have to come up with some money, or resort to picture libraries (who certainly won't give away pics for 'satisfaction'), so my advice would be to hold off for a while...

Click to expand...

Sounds good in theory but in the real world I doubt they would budge an inch.

If my pictures are not published anywhere, i'm not earning anything off them
If they're published in a book or advert then i get
1) fame(!)
2) people to look at and enjoy my pics (which is the main reason i take them)
3) a bit of dosh for charity if i'm lucky.

I don't think my photos are thus "worthless" and i've not lost anything

Hi Andy I've got several that show what its like when you turn all the light out you are welcome to use.
Also if there are any on the wssc web-site  http://www.darkgem.com/wssc/gallery1.htm  you would like to use let me know and I will ask the photographer responsible.

who cares if you don't get anything in return?, IMHO it is good that a publisher is willing to reprint a caving book which isn't often the case due to a relatively low number of potential purchasers.

why do you need to get a monetary reward for everything you do? My interpretation is that this will help Andy sell his book and I can't see what harm it does giving photos away. Most my photos are out of focus and quite poor but I'd love to see the better ones in print if possible, I didn't take my camera underground thinking- is is worth taking it caving with me? How much did it cost to recharge the battery.... Isn't caving and cave photography all about the enjoyment and sharing the experience rather than keeping it to yourself in case someone else might make a small profit from it...?

rant over (for now)

Thanks to everybody who has kindly offered photographs for this book.  It has become apparent after browsing through their various online galleries just how high the standard of cave photography is amongst the UK's keen amateurs.  I intend the Complete Caving Manual to become a showcase for their efforts and talents.  I will try my best to feature at least one picture from as many contributors as possible.  I feel it's a shame that some of the most talented and best known UK cave photographers have chosen not to share their work with the readership of this book and can only hope they will reconsider their position.

Thanks again to everybody.

Andy - does "The Complete Caving Manual" include a mention of internet forums (and this one by name) as a useful part of today's caving scene in the UK? If not, is there scope to add one? It might be an easy way to acknowledge the channel this forum has provided to allow you to complete the book. 

All those of you who've offered your photos for Andy's book should now ring him and book some SRT training. Explain that you can't afford to pay, but that if he's any good you'll recommend him to your mates, and in any case he'll have the 'satisfaction' of knowing that he has raised the standard of SRT skill amongst the caving community. Worth a try, I'd say.

Many clubs offer SRT training and cave trips for free, devaluing the price/taking work away from the professionals.

And many professional cave photographers will allow clubs to print their work in exchange for an acknowledgement. They can see the difference between commercial and non-commercial contexts.

Can I just point out that when UBSS produced the Caves of Co. Clare and South Galway in 2003, every photographer who contributed something to the book got a free copy. That wasn't even a commercial undertaking but we could not have done less.

Andy

I just emailed you with details of my web site. use anything you want.

if you need any more info just mail me the photo name and I can tell you when it was taken, who's in it etc

Jase

I'm quite happy for Andy to use my pics in the book.
If I wasn't happy with that I would'nt have sent him any.
Seems quite simple to me.

It's an interesting question; to offer photos for free.
I've been paid for use of images by large magazines (non caving mags) but have also had an image used (and syndicated) by a national newspaper without permission or payment (which hacked me off).
I note that Descent, a small, very specialist magazine which I suspect turns little profit for it's publishers always pays for photos, even without being asked. I know some professional photographers resent amateurs donating images for free, as publishers then never expect to pay ever again for an image.
But then, maybe caving books (which we all like to see published) are so borderline in terms of a publisher showing an interest that without free images they just won't get printed, or at least not with nice photos.
Personally I don't want to profit from caving. Anything I make (very little indeed) is ploughed back into my participation in the sport, and I'm happy that I put in more in in terms of voluntary work, than I will ever receive in payment.
I guess I wouldn't give an image for free to a large or high profit making company, to enable them to make even more profit, but would give freely to what I judge to be a worthy cause.
I take photos because I enjoy it, because I like to see (what I consider to be ) nice images, and because good photos encouraged me into caving in the first place, anything beyond that is a bonus.

A word of warning; if you do donate photos to any publisher, make sure you tie them down legally as to it's use, or you might just find they use the image widely, or even sell it for other uses, making a profit for them and not for you. Once you 'give' an image to them, they consider it to be a business resource to be used or sold as they see fit. Standard contracts specifying use, time limits, and other rights can be found and downloaded on the net. Be careful out there...

I am aware of the points of view from both directions and have both been paid for and donated photographs in the past. I am aware that some individuals livelihood is based on their skills as photographers and that there is always concern that their efforts might be debased in the financial sense.

I think if Andy wanted to use one or two of mine that would be fine but if a significant proportion of the illustrations were from one or more persons then they might reasonably ask of recompense. The cost of paying piecemeal for pictures can be prohibitive.

So you are welcome to use a couple of my shots if you want Andy, any more and we can discuss payment in kind!