Cave monitoring question

bumble

New member
This is an attempt to educate myself about cave data, in this age where it is relatively easy to get some electronics to sense, measure and monitor/transmit some physical characteristic within a cave.

As an example, I note a setup in Poole's Cavern to measure temperature, humidity and drip count, long term.

More generally, what cave characteristics are currently sort after?

Looking at the flip side of static sensor logging. Is useful data obtained carrying a sensor on a cave trip, a sort of data snap shot?

Thanks in advance.
 

Pitlamp

Well-known member
John Gunn masterminded some data logging in the underwater cave at Malham 2 or 3 years ago. This turned up some interesting findings. It's all in an edition of BCRA Cave & Karst Science.

The flood pulse and stream siphoning action in Speedwell Cavern has been extensively studied over recent years by Nigel Ball & John Gunn, also using data loggers. That's been written up too (again, I think in BCRA).

Not sure if this is any help at all but those two examples immediately spring to mind.
 

JoW

Member
What are you hoping to do?

I have been monitoring temperature, humidity, drip rates, Co2 and water isotopes in the Dales for the last 2.5 years if that's any help?

Feel free to send me a message if I can be of any assistance
 

Bob Mehew

Well-known member
I have interests in wind drafts, see CREG Journal 88 http://bcra.org.uk/pub/cregj/index.html?j=88 and CO2, see CREG Journal 104 http://bcra.org.uk/pub/cregj/index.html?j=104 plus radon.  I recall work being done on bats (numbers as well as species) and numbers entering a cave.  I am also aware of a desire to measure an underground lake's water level which can vary over many meters.  There is also residual complex organic volatile fumes left behind after work (and I don't mean farts).  Looking to mines, then other gases (CH4, CO, O2, H2S spring to mind) are of interest. 

Re snap shot v trip v longer term logging, it all depends upon the variation with time of the parameter of interest.  Snap shot levels may have some value, especially in protecting oneself from dangerous gases and fumes.  (But would you trust yourself to a home made device - witness Boeing's trouble over its anti stall system?)  I am not inclined to see much value in a what I would call 'trip' exposures save for I think the special case of radon where one could compute dose received from the trip.  Logging over time is of more value in providing data from which one might start to gain some insight to the driving forces behind the monitored species.  Having that data, then one might be able to say, OK we can do a spot measurement say every week  for a parameter.  But my gut feel is most parameters vary over minutes rather than weeks.
 

bumble

New member
I have stumbled on cave monitoring by chance, and I come, as they say, unencumbered with any knowledge of the subject. I don't have any projects in mind.

I've just had a scratch at the surface of the Cave & Karst Science magazines, with a monthly sign up.

My musings so far.
I'm inclined to agree with Bob, not collecting data on a cave trip. More useful with data reflecting the current state of the cave referenced in space and time, and perhaps presented in nice rotatable 3d.
Certainly flood pulses, air flow, pressure changes, etc. plotted in a time/space frame.

I suppose a task like magnetic susceptibility needs the space reference, but perhaps not time so much.

Off to do some more reading...
 
bumble said:
I've just had a scratch at the surface of the Cave & Karst Science magazines, with a monthly sign up.

Take a look at the CREG journals, http://bcra.org.uk/cregj  Use the search engine and it will throw up many references to data-logging articles in past CREG journals. You can subscribe to the online version of the journal for just ?4/year.
 
Pitlamp said:
The flood pulse and stream siphoning action in Speedwell Cavern has been extensively studied over recent years by Nigel Ball & John Gunn, also using data loggers. That's been written up too (again, I think in BCRA).

Yes. The paper is: BALL, Nigel. (2013). The Flooding Characteristics of Speedwell Cavern. Speleology 19, pp38-39.
"By placing water depth and temperature recorders at Main Rising and Whirlpool Rising in Speedwell Cavern, Nigel Ball is starting to produce a picture of the strange repeated pulsing of the water flow in this cave system".

This is a fascinating report of the quite strange pulsing nature of the water flow in Speedwell.

The paper can be found at http://bcra.org.uk/pub/speleology/index.html?j=19 but - Bumble - your free monthly BCRA Id wont give you access to that. To access Speleology magazine you need the paid-for monthly ID, for ?8. If you also want access to the CREG journal, for its many data-logging articles, and you are already a BCA member, then it would be cheaper for you to join BCRA than buy further IDs.
 

The Old Ruminator

Well-known member
Vurley is still showing over %2 CO2 at depth so we are trying to understand the process. The auto logger was installed in the cave today and will sample and record CO2 levels every half an hour for several months. It has an 8GB card so will last quite a long time. Soon we will set up the surface logger to record soil humidity, temperature and other factors. Finally we can compare the surface and cave data. Its important to remove the human factor from the cave data as our presence can affect the readings. We were at %.8 CO2 where we put the logger today but had been drilling a hole to hang it on. At one point in the cave earlier this year we had %17 O2 so there may be an O2 drop with an increase in CO2 which is a sort of double whammy. Around %14 O2 would be hypoxic.

Setting up the auto logger.

Setting up CO2 logger in Vurley. by Nicholas Chipchase, on Flickr

The auto logger with details erased for this image.

P4230007 by Nicholas Chipchase, on Flickr

Auto logger sensor head.

CO2 logger sensor head. by Nicholas Chipchase, on Flickr

Our mobile CO2 monitor.

Mobile CO2 logger. by Nicholas Chipchase, on Flickr


Er. No technical questions please. I am just the helper.
 

Bob Mehew

Well-known member
different place / different instrument - but what happens when some one goes looking at a CO2 logger.
 

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2xw said:
Wait speleology is ?8 a month?! Isn't it no longer published?

It is no longer published, but access to BCRA's online content (which includes all 19 issues of Speleology) is priced at ?8/month or ?30/year - but free to members.  If you only want access to C&KS that's free, and  its ?4/year for just the CREG journal.  See http://bcra.org.uk/bookshop/publications.html
 

Leclused

Active member
The Old Ruminator said:
We are working on data loggers for Vurley particularly C02.

Check out Erik's website for some information about CO2 dataloggers made by a caver for cavers

http://lab.speleo.nu/co2vking.php?fbclid=IwAR1At7fJ11nL5asxwk-8WaHNQTivHok_xFrAkVRmDJ1XNdPq6miPpePnOcg

 

Stuart France

Active member
Data logging in caves.  The problem divides into several parts:
(a) the sensor
(b) the logger
(c) the protective container to make it waterproof
(d) stopping people stealing or meddling with it ? security or concealment.

The sensor might be for light (to count cavers or groups of cavers); water pressure (to log flood pulses); shock (to count drips); temperature; humidity; and so on.  The output might be logic level ? implying light or no light.  The output might be analog (on a scale of say 0-5 volts or 4-20mA current across a resistor to convert that to a voltage) to represent water depth from a submersible sensor in a cave river:  some loggers will simply record a voltage every hour, every minute, or whatever gap you set it for, and you convert that to real world units using Excel or etc later on.  The output might be digital on a scale of 0-4095 (or some other encoding system) to represent temperature: this is typical of half-degree C or sixteenth of a degree ?I2C? digital temperature sensor chips like this: https://datasheets.maximintegrated.com/en/ds/DS1631-DS1731.pdf

The sensor might use a lot of power when turned on, e.g. to measure hydrocarbongas  like methane or diesel fumes in the air or some types of water depth sensor.  In which case, to be economical with power and long lasting with batteries, the logger must be smart enough to turn on the sensor only when it wants a reading, then wait for the correct sensor warm up period, then get several concordant readings and average them, and then turn the sensor off, go to sleep and wake up when a new reading is wanted if it is to do a good job.  Such a micropower logger is not available commercially, to my knowledge, so you are then in a DIY world.

The logger will have flash memory to store data.  This has to be downloaded before it gets full (implies using two loggers that are alternated between each cave visit as you won?t want to take a PC underground) or you must change the flash memory card/module for a spare during your cave visit then restart the same logger with a new memory for a run of another few days/weeks/months.

CO2 sensors ? the hot topic of the moment, see posts above.
Temperature sensors ? build your own with DS1631 type of I2C chips, or Tinytag sell a line of inexpensive humidity and temperature loggers, the sort of thing put inside display cabinets in museums or in chilled food lorries.
Humidity ? forget it if the cave is very humid, these sensors don?t work too well above 90%RH.
Caplamp lights ? its DIY again, use a photodiode and an opamp circuit, possibly fed through a microprocessor that checks for several instances of light within the same second to check it really is a caver as photodiodes (in total darkness) will trigger spontaneously about once a month or quarter ? you have been warned ? perhaps due to radioactive decay.
Drips ? build a piezo sensor using a buzzer disc and a comparator to process the signal ? its DIY again but pretty simple.
Water depth ? Honeywell has a line of ?20 sensors with analog output that needs an opamp circuit to raise the voltage up to a sensible level for logging.  General Electric sell ?200 sensors which are the ones logging hourly in the OFD streamway for some years and these are 4-20mA output and these have a warm up time of a second or so to get a stable reading.

Power consumption is a big issue if custom gear is left running for months between cave visits, logging at least hourly and run off alkaline cells like AA or C size.  To overcome the difficulties competently implies significant electronics know-how plus ability to write custom firmware.

http://bcra.org.uk/creg/ is the right place to head for ideas or to network with more experienced people.  The CREG runs a weekend field meeting once or twice a year, so you can combine electronics including radio/comms/logging with caving trips and social activities ? highly recommended.

 
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