Has anyone used a work positioning belt for caving?

Some are pretty cheap, at half the price of the Warmbac ones:
https://www.ffx.co.uk/tools/product/Silverline-251657-5024763122316-Work-Positioning-Belt-2-Point

They come with D-rings, and are actually tested to EN358 (whatever that means). I'm sure the padding could be cut away very easily.

What would you use them for.

Now I know that sound like a daft question, but these days, the only reason I wear a belt is if I'm dragging a bag in crawls. 

I used to mount my oldham on one, but I haven't seen anyone with a waist mounted battery in over a decade.

Ladders are quite rare in the grand scheme of things, and there's an argument that says you should wear a proper harness if lifelining on a ladder anyways.

Playing devils advocate btw.  I still wear a belt, mainly to keep my oversuit looking dapper, and to attach a bag to in a crawl, but never have a D ring on it, as they just get snagged on stuff and dig into you .

I am another oversuit belter. Without it, my one pack pops it open like a stamped on bag of crisps.

My understanding is that work positioning belts are only designed to stop you getting to an edge, not to protect you should you fall off it.

I always wear a harness if rope work is involved; I have a skinny BD belt should I need to haul a bag only.

It would be for life-lining on a ladder.

I could easily make one myself that would work for holding my oversuit together and dragging bags. I might even be able to persuade myself to trust it for additional protection on short ladder pitches, but never for belaying someone else. Borrowing a belt is no longer an option, hence I'm looking to get one.

Yes, harness are obviously best for protection at height, but I'm not going to drag mine around for every ladder pitch. Yes, I recognise the increased risk this exposes me to.

Check out online caving gear retailers.  Proper "notabelaybelt" belts aren't that expensive.
Edit: okay just checked and they are twice the price of what you linked to but I would find the extra tenner.

blackholesun said:

It would be for life-lining on a ladder. 

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People still do that.

Use a sling harness? Safer than a belt anyway...

The 2 x D Rings are fixed on the sides of the Silverline belt and are used for work positioning. EN358 is the work positioning system standard. A BT engineer at the top of a telegraph pole would generally use a similar belt attached to a full body harness. They would usually attach an EN358 work positioning lanyard between the two D rings, wrapped around the telegraph pole, over the top of the step pegs. The engineers feet would be taking most of their weight on the step pegs.

They are only really designed to be leaned against, for full suspension you need at least a sit harness.

If you started unpicking the stitching and re-arranging the positioning of the D rings to make a more traditional belay/battery belt it would leave big holes in the material where the load bearing stitching had been removed, that connecting the belt webbing to the padded section. This alteration would constitute a FAIL at examination. 

Equipment Examination is currently very topical amongst University clubs and I will be running an equipment examination workshop at the CHECC event in November.

It really depends on what you want to use it for.

If its for holding your trousers up or carrying an old fashioned lamp battery then it's perfect.

If it is to act as a safety belt for, e.g. ladder climbing, them make sure you get the buckle connected the correct way round otherwise it will simply slide undone under load to its maximum. The wearer would then be left suspended with the belt under their armpits, significantly reducing their ability to breath. 

Even if you fastened the belt correctly and snuggly, in the event of a loading it will generally always slide up under your armpits. If a large beer belly prevented this then you would simply tip upside down and probably fall out of the belt.

Rescuing someone suspended from a belt with legs or arms caught between ladder rungs will not be straightforward. 

As SamT mentions, there are some very good arguments for always wearing at least a sit harness when ladder climbing.

The very fact that you are being belayed means any exposure to increased risk is not only your own. The belayer is the one left with having to rescue you.

You could always save having to carry even a belt and just tie a bowline and half hitch round your waist. It would be just as safe (not very), just as uncomfortable and save yourself ?10.31. 

Mark

That looks like the bottom half of a modern cave diving harness! Mind you, the D rings might be a bit far forward. Hm, you've got me think there; thanks for sharing that OP.

D rings have been mentioned a number of times in this thread.

I was told by rescue bods that D rings on caving belts have a reputation for breaking  ribs and that the traditional rather square-ish ended D rings can break a whole row of ribs when the wearer of the belt has taken a fall.

I decided to stop using D rings after hearing that. 

I think stopping taking falls on a belt or even being in a position to take falls on a belt would be a far more sensible approach.

Disgusted from Cornwall. said:

I am another oversuit belter. Without it, my one pack pops it open like a stamped on bag of crisps.

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classic

Mark Wright said:

You could always save having to carry even a belt and just tie a bowline and half hitch round your waist. It would be just as safe (not very), just as uncomfortable and save yourself ?10.31. 

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Or just do away with any half-hearted lip-service whatsoever and simply never fall off anything and save having any form of psuedo-PPE in the first instance. Remember: "it'll be reet". Note: only works, until it doesn't.

'You're not supposed to need a lifeline on a 20' ladder'

'You're not supposed to fall off the bugger either'

I've always viewed lifelines on ladders as a sort of "air brake" that will hopefully slow my face impacting the floor. I know it will hurt, I know if the belayer is a twonk and doesn't lower me ASAP then I may well have a serious problem.  I do always use a lifeline though (often just a bowline round me).

Now if I am taking novices down ladders, then I put them in whatever sit harnesses I have to hand (climbing or caving).

Mark's post took me on a trip back to the late 1970's when I was a "youth in training" (apprentice) with the GPO.
All we had at the time was a big fat leather belt with a strap to wrap around the pole (once one had reached the correct working position - i.e. somewhere between the top step and the terminating box).
This was not an  exact science as it all depended upon how tall (or short) you were - as a strapping 6'4" lad, I invariably found that instead of having my feet comfortably on the top two steps (which were both at the same height for comfort and safety), I would end up with one foot on one step and the other on a lower one, else I would end up with my head popping up amongst the drop-wires (Oleg-style) and trying to work below myself would not have been possible nor practical!
So for me, pole work was not very comfortable and not especially secure, because when I came to lean back onto the belt, I was uneven and therefore prone to slippage!!

And no, we didn't have ANY form of life-line whilst climbing the ladders, we simply lashed the bottom of the ladders to the bottom of the pole with rope and, once up, lashed the top of the ladders to the top of the pole with some more rope...

How times have changed, these soft OpenReach engineers don't know they're born, what with full body harnesses 

 

'You're not supposed to need a lifeline on a 20' ladder'

'You're not supposed to fall off the bugger either'

Was just reading the book that was quoted from last night (Race Against Time). It is very good.

cooleycr said:

How times have changed, these soft OpenReach engineers don't know they're born, what with full body harnesses 

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BT engineers might wear full body harness as well as their positioning belts and lanyards but they don't usually clip themselves to anything. A bit like the people who install large advertising banners at the side of the road. They all wear full body harnesses but never have them clipped to anything because there isn't anything to clip a fall arrest lanyard to.

Mark

Very true, in fact the belts that we wore were not designed to arrest a fall at all - they simply allow you to lean back into the belt and thereby use both hands.
Some guys used to hold on to the ring at the top of the pole and try and work one-handed rather than trust the belt.
There was the occasional accident at work reported whereby the engineer had slipped on a wet step and received a very nasty smack in the face from the pole as the belt pulled them into it.
And if the ladder wasn't lashed up correctly (or at all - often the case when one was in a hurry to get the job done!), it could be kicked down and then they ended up hanging from the steps until a passer-by spotted them and found a working 'phone box to call it in!!...