Not sure who should be notified of this, as it's not my normal caving area, but I was in Swildon's this weekend (19th April 2003) and the lower of the two p-bolts at the pitch head of Twenty Foot Pot is very loose.

The upper bolt is still sound.

its ok for a p bolt to move a bit isn't it? Was this one actually moving out of the hole or just rotating a bit?

It's ok in that it's probably not going to fail imminently, and I just used the other p-bolt and clipped the loose one as a backup.

I think it's good to notify "the authorities" so they can add it to their list - can't hurt can it? I always think it's better to say summat then just ignore it.

The other thing that always worries me is that in a popular cave such as Swildon's, there's always going to be a party that just clips that bolt and no others. Probably ok right now, but could be potentially dangerous in the future.

Apparantly the other main P-bolt is now also loose.

Be careful and back everything up to the third P-bolt before the pitch head !!

shit! Who is responsible for the bolts there?

I emailed one of the local clubs about this and they passed it on to the person concerned. I guess these things take time....

The bolt remains loose to date - 20th July 2003; the relevant "authorities" are aware of the situation but you simply wouldn't believe the bureaucracy and impotence of "authorities" - ah well. The advice to everyone using the bolts is "never trust your life to one bolt" and use the other two bolts - there is a sound natural thread belay for primary, a bombproof bolt for secondary and then the two bolts for a Y-hang (the further one of which is the loose one). Many groups are still witnessed hanging ladder and line off just one bolt... the moral onus, of course, is to enlighten them of the "trusting your life to one bolt" maxim.

Perhaps one day the bolt will be re-resined. Don't hold your breath.

Cavesafely&gently - darkdudes.

Apparantly Les Williams is in charge of that kind of stuff and he has to redo some kind of course before it can be replaced/repaired.

Perhaps in the meantime, somebody could stick a not on it to say that the bolts are loose and to back everything up. I don't particularly like notices in caves, but it's better than someone pulling a bolt and hurting themselves.

hmm not sure about that one Bubba. You could say that you should have a sign on every pitch. Its like in Porth Yr Ogof there is a sign warning about the very dangerous resurgence exit, yet people still die there cos they ignore the sign. Its mainly peoples one responsibility to ensure their safety. There should be signs in the club huts and on websites etc but not actually in the cave.

Yeah, fair enough, 'twas just an idea - it's more than unsightly anyway....I'll not mention the road signs beyond Sump 1 :wink:

And there I was, all ready to print out a sign, get it laminated and fix it nearby the pitch-head tomorrow evening (22nd); should I do it anyway? Dunno... I'll think about it. Of course everyone should check their rigging and the bolts anyway but there's a lot of very trusting souls out there who simply go with the flow and reckon everything's bombproof and doesn't need checking. Perhaps I'm patronising (yeh, I am) but maybe people need protecting from themselves.

Talk me out of it, please. Otherwise I'm gonna stick a sign up saying, "Never trust your life to one bolt - back up your belays and check whether any bolts are loose". But what if I get into trouble... who cares? &, more to the point, who with?

:evil:

I think the problem in really popular caves such as Swildon's is that often the party leader might not be as experienced as would be liked. Most seasoned cavers know well enough to set up more than one anchor point wherever possible, but some people just see a p-bolt and assume it's bombproof.

In Giant's hole in Derbyshire, some parties often rig Garlands Pot with just one of the P-bolts - when one become loose it was replaced within a week for the same reason that a lot of beginners go down there.

I dunno - do what you feel is right I suppose - are both bolts really loose now?

Since I have not been trained to place anchors I cannot accurately say what state the bolts are in - I can say, however. that the furthest one moves the most (about 3mm lateral, twisting) and the closer of the two on the Y-hang moves about 1mm if you twist it. It has been said that these marine grade stainless steel bolts CAN swivel through 360degrees and still not pop out due to the design of the shank (shaft) but I'm no expert so don't rely on that one piece of hearsay as evidence (or fact).

:roll:

Unfortuntely I forgot to print out a sign and laminate it at work today (shucks) so it'll have to wait until my next, next trip to Swildon's Hole, unless someone comes up with a better idea. I suppose I could write to the CSCC about it (but that's already been done by ACG).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not having a go at those who place P bolts, I think it's an admirable effort....but surely if they're going to be placed then shouldn't some sort of support service be offered?

Nobody's expecting it to be done the day after it's been noticed, but this was reported months ago now.

A damn good question.

So... what happens in other UK caving regions in similar circumstances?

Who's falling down on the job? Presumably it's something the NCA Fixed Aids policy covers. Does anyone within this forum have expert knowledge of this topic? - if so, enlighten me please.

I mentioned the loose bolts to ANOTHER group last night who were using just one to rig their ladder & line! - unlike many surly types, these guys were pleased to be informed! As for the sign, the local Fountain of Wisdom he say "Sign in cave - bad; sign at entrance - good". Don't ask me!

In Derbyshire, the DCA look after such matters.

Dunno what the setup is down your way, and not sure about the NCA but might be worth contacting them.

I think putting a notice on the entrance is a good compromise and stops crap getting left in the cave. Talking of which, Swildon's is the only cave I've ever been in where I encountered a human poo. Nice !!

There has been a sign at the entrance blockhouse for a couple of months (or so) informing cavers to be aware of this situation and to back up their rigging or use a Y-hang; having observed numerous groups doing just this since the sign has been up proves that it certainly helps.

Previously it was shocking, but not surprising, to see many ladders (and lines, where they were being used) clipped on to one bolt, contrary to common sense, best practice and all the guidelines ever printed! :roll:

I know its some time after the last post, as I just joined the forum, but it
may be useful anyway.

The set up in the Peak (with the DCA) I imagine is similar in other regions
with P bolt placing. Because of the dreaded insurance aspect, P bolts can
only be placed and also inspected by certain nominated people. There is a
register of every bolt placed: when it was placed, exactly where, etc. In
effect every single bolt is uniquely identified and its history known. The
problem is that to maintain your status as a "qualified" placer or
inspector, you have to place at least one bolt each 12 months since the last
training session.

If there are say originally 10 people involved in placing/inspecting bolts
and assuming no new routes are bolted, there may only be a handful of bolts
needing replacement. Often one or two people end up doing this for one
reason or another (more time available or whatever).

Next thing you know, the 12 months have passed and only these one or two
people are left qualified to do all the work while the remainder try and
organise refresher training to bring the numbers back up.

That has happened in the Peak and possibly elsewhere.

Hope that helps.

Although the primary bolt is sound, both the bolts over the pitch itself are loose and more so than previously. I understand they are now out of test but that CSCC has/will have a bolt placer available soon to remedy the situation. There are good natural belays available if you've taken enough rope to make use of them (v. large pillar up above the primary bolt and another alongside the primary bolt ... but a bit worn in places).

This posting is just a little reminder to back up your belay/rigging and not to trust your life to just one bolt... it is a little concerning when you see a ladder (no lifeline) clipped on to the wobblier of the two loose bolts and hoardes of cavers queuing to return up the pitch.

But, hey! - I'm not qualified to make any objective appraisal of the state of the bolt(s) so whadda I know?