BBC Article on Caving in Britain

2xw

Active member
The Old Ruminator said:
70,000 on instructor lead courses sounds rather a lot.

Good if true. If 5 instructors from each caving area took 10 people a day you'd reach 70k in a year.

Not hard to imagine when you see the parking near longchurn some days!

Do you reckon only 140 a week Chris? Especially if you include scouts, outdoor centres and places like GoBelow
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
2xw said:
The Old Ruminator said:
70,000 on instructor lead courses sounds rather a lot.

Good if true. If 5 instructors from each caving area took 10 people a day you'd reach 70k in a year.

Not hard to imagine when you see the parking near longchurn some days!

Do you reckon only 140 a week Chris? Especially if you include scouts, outdoor centres and places like GoBelow

The original quote from the source was:

"About 70,000 people go on instructor-led courses into caves in the Yorkshire Dales every year.."

To which TOR commented it seemed high. I agree. 1,400 people per week into a handful of Dales caves does seem a typo, 140 being far more reasonable, namely twenty people per day on average.

70,000 people in the entire country isn't unreasonable. IIRC Porth-yr-Ogof handles in the region of 30,000 per annum. I agree with that also.
 

Pitlamp

Well-known member
Interesting article - and it paints us in a good light generally. But some of the stats given are questionable. Have there really been skeletons of sabre-toothed tigers, rhinoceroses and bears lying around in caves for "65-70 million years"? (Are the caves themselves that old?!) Do "large swathes" of the UK's caves really only total a mere "60 miles"? (I suspect that last one might have been taken out of context.)

The article looks like an attempt to get across the flavour of caving by someone doing an internet search and quoting from various available material, seemingly at random. It doesn't look like it's been reviewed by someone who really knows their stuff. To be fair, I still think they did a reasonable job and this post shouldn't be seen as a complaint. Just pointing out that some of the "facts" given shouldn't be taken too seriously. This latter thought might also shed doubt on the numbers of instructed cavers quoted, which fellow forum users have discussed immediately above.

The article quotes Ari Cooper Davies, who is a regular contributor here. I'd be interested to learn if you were directly interviewed or whether they've just found stuff you've written online and quoted from that. There's nothing wrong with such an approach of course - but it does perhaps act as a reminder that we should all be careful what we post, as it may be quoted by anyone - and in a different context from where we first wrote. (Please don't take that last comment to be criticism of Ari Cooper Davies, in any way.)
 

mikem

Well-known member
The 60 miles is quoted as caves we know are there, but haven't entered yet, so the distance from tested sinks to resurgences - there is a lot more still to be identified.

Definitely no ice age fauna around 65 million years ago (when dinosaurs disappeared), they were around nearer 2.5 million to 10 thousand.

However, more than 10,000 people are taken down Goatchurch each year (that's only 2 trips per week for 12 instructors), whilst 70,000 is 24 instructor led groups every day of the year (definitely viable for the whole country), better ask Badlad what he actually said, rather than guessing...

Mike
 

Pitlamp

Well-known member
One of the people quoted in that article has kindly been in touch to explain that his contribution was based on a telephone interview - so presumably the others were.

I'm not knocking the BBC; overall I think the article's pretty good.  (y)
 

mikem

Well-known member
That seems to be a case of the journalist trying to sensationalise, whilst the cavers are playing it down.

Mike
 

Pegasus

Administrator
Staff member
mikem said:
That seems to be a case of the journalist trying to sensationalise, whilst the cavers are playing it down.

Mike

Exactly, blummin exactly - I spoke to the journalist who wrote it and asked her not to resort to the usual cliched sensationalism - I made it very clear.  Have e-mailed her with my thoughts  :mad:

 

aricooperdavis

Moderator
I'm quite happy with this particular article, not too sensational and quite down to earth, makes caving seem approachable and understandable and interesting. I am particularly impressed that the author linked to New to Caving!

Pitlamp said:
The article quotes Ari Cooper Davies, who is a regular contributor here. I'd be interested to learn if you were directly interviewed or whether they've just found stuff you've written online and quoted from that.

The author is an ex-Exeter student which is why Dave and I were approached I think. We were interviewed directly, but even so the quotes are slightly out of context. That being said, I feel that the general message reflects how I feel pretty well anyway.

I've noticed that the BBC has a section on their website where it introduces a huge range of sports and how to get involved in them (I'll find a link in a sec EDIT: www.bbc.co.uk/sport/get-inspired/25416779 ), but caving isn't on there. Perhaps we can get enough people emailing to ask for it to be added to make it happen?
 

Pegasus

Administrator
Staff member
aricooperdavis said:
I feel that the general message reflects how I feel pretty well anyway.

I've noticed that the BBC has a section on their website where it introduces a huge range of sports and how to get involved in them (I'll find a link in a sec EDIT: www.bbc.co.uk/sport/get-inspired/25416779 ), but caving isn't on there. Perhaps we can get enough people emailing to ask for it to be added to make it happen?

Yes, I agree - 'magical', great description:)

Well spotted re the website.  I'll get in touch with them.
 

Badlad

Administrator
Staff member
I was interviewed by phone for this article (over a week ago now) as have several others.  It's not the best article on caving I've read, using all the cliched comments, but not the worst either.  My aim was to try to get over that caving is a normal outdoor activity for those who enjoy it.  I always try to put a positive spin on caving to the press but they are hampered by a historical bias.  In this case the lady said she couldn't be too positive about caving as she had to reflect the obvious dangers being played out in Thailand.  It is worth remembering that often what you say can be used out of context and much of what you say not used at all but overall it is important to respond to the press and improve our sports PR.

I find the contrast in perception interesting in this weekends press coverage.  The article in the Mail on Sunday with Jason and Chris as the focus has hundreds of overwhelmingly positive comments on their part in the rescue.  The comments don't quite connect with the fact that these are normal cavers/cave divers enjoying caving as a sport who have a high level of caving skills and have risen to the challenge of a very difficult rescue.  This is a complete contrast to the comments the Caver Keith You tube channel receives which would label them as completely mad in any other circumstance. 

I'm going to start a different thread on the numbers game.
 

mrodoc

Well-known member
Making the point that many cavers are pensioners (eg MF, myself, the Descent editor, ORT etc etc) might help cool down the drama a bit.
 
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