In the UK (not sure about elsewhere in the world) we have a severity grading; grades I to V. We do not have a sensitivity grading which would help inform people of the sensitivity, to use, of a system or part of a system.
Here's an idea that I have come across.
A sensitivity grade could be tagged onto the severity grade; Ia, Ib, IIa, IIb etc.
The grades that have been suggested are;

A - Low sensitivity
Robust system that can withstand all but deliberate destruction.
B - Moderate sensitivity
Possibility of damage to elements of the system.
Cavers must have a basic knowledge of conservation issues
C - High sensitivity
Elements of the system can be damaged easily.
Cavers must have a good knowledge of conservation issues
Cavers should assess the need to use this section of the system and not do so unless there is good reason.
Precautions must be taken to limit impact
X - Extremely Sensitive
A section of cave/mine that will be damaged irrevocably.
Complete avoidance of the area should be observed.
U - Unclassified
A section of cave or mine that has not yet been assessed
Cavers using unclassified sights must assess each part of the system visited and apply the above criteria.

Opinions and thoughts on this subject would be appreciated.

Sounds good., some fairly random and uncordinated thoughts:

Tho it may be hard giving overall cave classifications. In long caves they could be complicated. Because certain bits of caves are very well decorated whilst large areas are not means either the 'sensitivity grade' would not be truly representative of the cave, or would be some kind of 'average' whereby the bits which need conserving dont get the protection cos most of the same cave is less sensitive, e.g. Ogof Draenen.

Should there be any kind of division between types of damage? e.g. breaking of stal in Ogof Craig A Ffynnon, and accidental (and inevitable) mudding of Indianna Highway in Draenen, which used to be very nice and white.

Of course anything to help in cave conservation is a good idea.

I just think that you would be grading something that is immediately obvious. If a cave has something worth protecting then a caver should already realise it when he/she comes across it. Those pillocks who the caves need the protection from probably wouldn't give a tinker's cuss what the grade was and just go ahead and trample through the formations anyway. :x

If a cave has something worth protecting then a caver should already realise it when he/she comes across it. Those pillocks who the caves need the protection from probably wouldn't give a tinker's cuss what the grade was and just go ahead and trample through the formations anyway

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Fine for you and me paul - but I suspect there are so many cavers out there who - ok they're not going to snap stall off - but are essentially not 'tuned in' or aware of cave conservation. They are on a classic sports trip that a hundred caves do a week.

By having a sensitivity grade for various areas of the cave, when reading the guide, cavers would instantly become aware that there is somthing they need to watch out for - it might not be stall - it might be mud formations, tiny crystals, or a mining relic.

As for huw's comment about overall gradings - it could work like multi pitch climbs, Pitch 1= grade a - 2 = c etc.

Eg =

Giants - Entrance to Garlands - I b , Crabwalk - II a, Upper syphon - II c - Ghost rift III d
Chamber of horrors - Va.

But hey ho - just like in the climbing world - its all just a topo - How many maillons do I need then follow the P bolts.

No one sits on the bog anymore and reads guidebooks.

SamT said:

No one sits on the bog anymore and reads guidebooks.

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They do! It's my personal library.

Sam is right about raising awareness and that the importance of conservation would be highlighted by a scheme such as this.

I believe that new cavers would benefit from the grading, we may be able to move through caves whilst trying to minimise our impact but can you remember how many times you used to bang your head when you first started?

When trying to judge the reasons behind actions of individuals I always try to believe that the great majority would not dream of intentionally destroying a resource such as our caves and mines. Most of the damage must be inadvertant and should, therefore, be avoidable through education. A grading scheme would be one way of delivering a conservation message to the majority of the caving community.

Fair point, Huw, about applying an aggregate grade to a system. I believe, not that familiar with S Wales, that the severity grade is already applied to areas within a system, the conservation grade would work in the same way.

Its always going to be a balance between over describing a system, thus detracting from the spirit of exploration, and describing enough to provide the individual with an overview of what to expect so that niether they nor the system end up damaged.

I think that taking a tape measure and measuring the distance between junctions, as recently happened in Giants, is taking things a bit far. Do you think that they are going to produce an audio guide so that a caver gets verbal instructions as they travel through the cave. Perhaps they could instal transponders at strategic locations so that thier digital guide can tell them exactly where they are. :roll:

Johnny said:

I think that taking a tape measure and measuring the distance between junctions, as recently happened in Giants, is taking things a bit far.

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What is this about? A re-survey?

Not too sure, Stu, Underground and I were in there the other day and a couple of blokes were measuring Maggins. They weren't doing a proper survey. I think that they are producing a guide for the Hitch and Hike on-line guide.

That's right...forgotten about them. Was their that day myself. Strange.

see thread http://www.ukcaving.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=273

I can only assume , since Ive never heard of any problems with the survey , (and the fact there was no compass/clino in evidence) that they were measuring so they could write

"a left turn after 50 meterst, 100 meters on the right" etc etc.

Shauns online guide to Peak is a little like that. OK I suppose.

However - Ive alway found that when climbing or caving , my abilitly to remember/judge 50 meters or 100 meters is poor. Much better if its more descriptive - after the large overhang or just past the flowstone curtain.

Unless as john suggest - we carry a tape measure, a cassate with audio instructions, paint/scratch arrows in the rock, install signs all drive on the left, better still install some sort of public transport system so we dont have to walk or climb or EVEN THINK!!

Perhaps they could do a full audio/visual of the system and then create a virtual reality version of the cave. That way you wouldn't have to leave your front room! :borg:

I think we digress, perhaps we should get back to conservation grading?

As one of the blokes who was taking a tape measure around Giants I think I should just point out we weren't doing a re-survey. The aim is to put descriptions on the HNH website so those people who don't have a copy of Caves of the Peak District or Classic Caves of the Peak district (which are both out of print) can work out where they are going. There is a link elsewhere on this website discussing the way from the Eating House to to Geology. Thats all the guide is intended to be - not a total idiots guide. I don't intend doing a full description/photo montage/audio visual display - I don't have that much time, I can't be arsed and I would rather go caving for fun.

I personally can't see a problem in writing a brief description which is available to anyone. It's the same as looking in a guide book to get an idea about what a cave is like, and with the guide books out of print it seems a bit harsh to restrict that to those who are lucky enough to have a copy.

Anyway, you don't have to read the guide if you don't want to.

Brendan said:

Anyway, you don't have to read the guide if you don't want to.

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Sorry Brendan,

I agree with you, a guide is a good idea.
I have discussed it with Shaun myself and agree that the information should be freely available.
Good job on the write up, I know how hard it can be as I am trying to do one for Bagshawe, keep up the good work!

You can put your handbag away now :wink:

Handbag withdrawn :wink:

Await Bagshawe with interest - I get very confused down there

Brandan - not knocking the online guide situation mate. Good idea given the situation and I think Shaun is doing a good job of Peak cavern.

quoting my self with reference to guidebooks that describe everything via distances.

Shauns online guide to Peak is a little like that. OK I suppose

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my only concern is

Ive alway found that when climbing or caving , my abilitly to remember/judge 50 meters or 100 meters is poor.

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Thats my opinion.

going to start a new thread on the guidebook situation.

SamT said:

If a cave has something worth protecting then a caver
should already realise it when he/she comes across it. Those pillocks who
the caves need the protection from probably wouldn't give a tinker's cuss
what the grade was and just go ahead and trample through the formations
anyway

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Fine for you and me paul - but I suspect there are so many cavers out there
who - ok they're not going to snap stall off - but are essentially not
'tuned in' or aware of cave conservation. They are on a classic sports trip
that a hundred caves do a week.

By having a sensitivity grade for various areas of the cave, when reading
the guide, cavers would instantly become aware that there is somthing they
need to watch out for - it might not be stall - it might be mud formations,
tiny crystals, or a mining relic.

Click to expand...

I know what you are saying but I don't believe that if a group of cavers
haven't already got the knowledge as to what they should protect from damage
then having a grade in a guide book will make not a jot of difference.

I was at a public meeting in Bakewell last week where some archaeologists
were presenting their thoughts on how cavers should also protect any
archaeology from damage in the same way as formations, mud deposits, etc.

I believe that education is the priority as opposed to a grading system.

After all, even if a grade were to indicate that a cave, mine or section of
cave or mine needed protecting - you would still need to know what it is you
are trying to protect!

Whatever happens, I think that it's very good that conservation gets discussed seriously, as it is doing here.

When I started caving (60's) you more or less had to join a caving club - you couldn't afford the ladders, transport was a problem etc.

Now, everybody seems to be able to afford whatever they need, SRT means that you don't need a big gang to get down even the deepest pots and the concept of the club is on the decline.

So the opportunities for education that the clubs used to offer aren't always there. A couple of fit young lads can easily start caving and wander where they will ... but they don't necessarily know right from wrong.

Not sure if a grading system would catch on, but it might help. Certainly as much public airing of the topic as is possible (like this thread) will do plenty of good. I hate notices but I think they might be a necessity too.

I do not think that grading could ever be a replacement for education, infact, as previously stated, it's whole purpose would be to inform and therefore educate.

In order to grade a system that system must be assessed. There is a scheme in existence to assess underground sites through Conservation Plans and Audits (I shall start another thread on these). It is in these documents that the real educational material will lie and these documents should be widely available. In this way information on conservation aspects can be accessed.

The point about a grading system is that it acts as a 'front line' to such an education process.

As Al says a couple of guys can set themselves up and get off down a cave without ever having had access to clubs or the caving community. What those guys are most likely to have is a guide book. A Conservation Grade in this book will, at the very least, inform them that conservation underground should be considered.

Johnny said:

As Al says a couple of guys can set themselves up and get off down a cave without ever having had access to clubs or the caving community. What those guys are most likely to have is a guide book. A Conservation Grade in this book will, at the very least, inform them that conservation underground.

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Bang on mate.

This harks back to the need for guidebooks (as discussed in the COTPD thread). In the BMC climbing guides there was usually chapter devoted to conservations issues (that may be applicable to that particular crag). So it should be with Cave guides.
I remember being a stanage with some friends - they'd all recently "got into" climbing (it was the latest fashion craze in the big city). I was a tad embarrassed to be associated with them - since they were raukous (?) to say the least. In the pub later one of the girls was thumbing through the guide and piped up 'oh, look here - it says that being noisey etc at the crag aparently doesnt go down well with most climbers' the group looked a bit sheepish.

Note - you cant easily thumb through your online guide in the pub or on the bog. (cue replies about laptops and palm tops from the more afluent amongst us).

Can anyone actually come up with a reason why the grading system is a bad idea.

I think some form of grading is a good plan. Despite problems in big systems where the cave has many different areas, it would at least give you a warning to be careful - or more so than normal.
It certainly can't do any harm.