As there was such heated discussion concerning this topic on our Club forum I thought I would kick-start it again here.

Fire away with your views, questions and opinions; no matter how stupid or bigotted they might seem. I have my own views on the subject, but like many people I wish the situation was different.

I will enjoy reading this I hope.

Greg Jones (Ship-badger)

For our club trips (of which we have had many successful and enjoyable ones, seeing some magnificent stuff along the way and having a great time too) we generally ring up and sort out a trip either collecting a key or meeting up with a leader. Seems almost heretically easy and I've never noticed there being a problem.

I imagine, on the other hand, that if you simply want to turn up and gain entry to a locked site, things aren't quite as straightforward :wink:

what personally would like to see

No insurance requirement
No club membership requirement
Access with 24/48? hours request
An active campaign to address the club and insurance issues (asides to the purpose of the thread)
Graded as to difficulty and equipment requirement for commonly used mines
Clear insructions on how to obtain access

I recognise and have heard the arguments for and against the above and accept that we will not all agree :shock:

Personally I regard proper equipment and knowledge as far more important than insurance. The only restriction I would like to see is that appropriate equipment is used, a grading as to how difficult a particular visit is would allow visitors to make their own judgement as to their ability to visit safely

Unfortunately, in many cases, insurance is stipulated as an access requirement by the landowner.

In the forest we are lucky in that we can get access to pretty much any cave.
Whether we like the hoops we need to jump through or not, at least no caves are barred to us. (In an ideal world, obvioulsy I would prefer not to have to go through the hassle of making a phone call, but I think it is a reasonable compromise for the freedom of digging and access - we really do have some fantastic relationships with the landownres which would not have been possible without some form of structure to the management of the sites).

It really is trivially easy to get access to almost any cave or mine in the forest - far less hassle than many areas - it is mostly just a letter or phone call away.

May I recommend reading a guide book for instructions on equipment and access ? (Such as Tony Oldham's books). All of the information is published and available....

I personally dont think that grading is very useful - it is far better to ask someone who has knowledge of the site...

In reply to Jagmans comments regarding grading, this would be useful information to be able to give people, but who is going to compile it?
Some of the mines are very complex, with flooded areas, stopes and deads, bad air, shafts, rifts, etc. If anyone out there would like the job (Jagman?), contact FoDCCAG and I'm sure they'll be interested. Seriously though I tend to agree with Prahja, in that it should be left to visitors to determine their own level of competence. That said, if you do need any information on the caves and mines of the area, post your request on our Club forum (RFDCC) and we'll always do our best to help.

Personally I regard proper equipment and knowledge as far more important than insurance

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I would be interested to hear how a third party/landowner is to be assured that members of a visiting caving group are properly equipped and have sufficient knowledge to embark on their chosen objective: this sounds remarkably like the idea of having a "caving ticket/qualification" as a pre-requisite to being recognised as a bona fide caver to me....

cap 'n chris said:

Personally I regard proper equipment and knowledge as far more important than insurance

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I would be interested to hear how a third party/landowner is to be assured that members of a visiting caving group are properly equipped and have sufficient knowledge to embark on their chosen objective: this sounds remarkably like the idea of having a "caving ticket/qualification" as a pre-requisite to being recognised as a bona fide caver to me....

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A good proxy for this is to insist that they are members of a properly constituted caving club.

cap 'n chris said:

Personally I regard proper equipment and knowledge as far more important than insurance

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I would be interested to hear how a third party/landowner is to be assured that members of a visiting caving group are properly equipped and have sufficient knowledge to embark on their chosen objective: this sounds remarkably like the idea of having a "caving ticket/qualification" as a pre-requisite to being recognised as a bona fide caver to me....

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Thats the exact opposite of my opinion Cap'Chris :? onviously did not make myself clear there
The whole insurance debate has passed back and forth many times, we only agree that we cannot agree on that one. I do passionatley believe that equipment appropriate to the trip is far more important.
As for grading particular holes in the ground, the question asked for views, I think that perhaps on the popular trips around the country this would be relatively easily done but is no more than a thought to ponder and was posted as such.
In addition this thread is specifically reffering to controlled access in a particular part of the country, therefor it would be upto the controlling club (organisation, whatever) to stipulate the appropriate equipment for a particular location.

Jagman said:

... therefore it would be upto the controlling club (organisation, whatever) to stipulate the appropriate equipment for a particular location.

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Oh no it bloody isn't! Just imagine the wrangles as to exactly what kit is required for a given trip (How many pitches do you think there are in Penyghent Pot - I've known it done with just three pitches rigged & lots of free-climbing).

And who exactly would take the blame* in the event of an accident when the "appropriate" kit was either used or not used?

I am involved in a number of access agreements for quite a number of caves. We will ensure that all and any fixed aids, bolts etc are fitted and maintained in line with the appropriate national guidelines but we will never prescribe exactly what kit is required for any of those caves.



*and thereby need their insurance to pay for the court costs.

Again, this thread was about ideas/suggestions.....

The thoughts behind that are simple, some places are a simple walk through with a Petzl head lamp and hard hat, some require SRT, some are through deep water, the list is endless. I merely suggested that some form of guide/advice may be appropriate in some cases.

For example, Mines of Lakeland Exploration Society stipulate what type of ligting is required for specific visits.

Jagman said:

For example, Mines of Lakeland Exploration Society stipulate what type of ligting is required for specific visits.

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So if you are "road-testing" the latest & potentially best wizzy lighting system ever, based on a radical new design, then they won't let you down, as it's not on their "approved list"?

graham said:

Jagman said:

For example, Mines of Lakeland Exploration Society stipulate what type of ligting is required for specific visits.

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So if you are "road-testing" the latest & potentially best wizzy lighting system ever, based on a radical new design, then they won't let you down, as it's not on their "approved list"?

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I'd have to ask them for exact specifics on that Graham, but basically it is to ensure that the light is fit for the task. I would imagine that a fabulous new lighting system would not be an issue if an appropriate backup was used until its ability is proved

I can see why, on conservation grounds, any access body would ban carbide. But above and beyond that they should not be prescribing what lighting system I use.

I know loads of cavers who use home made lighting systems. Where do they go to get their Mines of Lakeland Exploration Society certificate of approval?

graham said:

I can see why, on conservation grounds, any access body would ban carbide. But above and beyond that they should not be prescribing what lighting system I use.

I know loads of cavers who use home made lighting systems. Where do they go to get their Mines of Lakeland Exploration Society certificate of approval?

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So it is acceptable to do a 700 feet ladder and abseil descent in a lead mine using a Maglite as long as you have BCA Insurance?
And before you ask, yes I have seen more than the odd person who feels their Maglite fit for purpose.

Jagman said:

graham said:

I can see why, on conservation grounds, any access body would ban carbide. But above and beyond that they should not be prescribing what lighting system I use.

I know loads of cavers who use home made lighting systems. Where do they go to get their Mines of Lakeland Exploration Society certificate of approval?

Click to expand...

So it is acceptable to do a 700 feet ladder and abseil descent in a lead mine using a Maglite as long as you have BCA Insurance?
And before you ask, yes I have seen more than the odd person who feels their Maglite fit for purpose.

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Acceptable to whom?

Oh no it bloody isn't! Just imagine the wrangles as to exactly what kit is required for a given trip (How many pitches do you think there are in Penyghent Pot - I've known it done with just three pitches rigged & lots of free-climbing).

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It may well be possible to do lots of free-climbing in many pots - what is wrong with providing informaion on what kit is required (just like northern and peak rigging guides do) and perhaps suggest that if you are very competent at climbing then you don't need rope..?

The kit required for any trip should be designed for the general caving community not just the few as you suggest reenyghent..

Unfortunately, in many cases, insurance is stipulated as an access requirement by the landowner.

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And for what? How many times have we been sued/taken to court/blah etc for going caving.. Insurance is pointless. Perhaps more persuasion is needed towards those short-sighted landowners that insist on it.....?

graham said:

Jagman said:

graham said:

I can see why, on conservation grounds, any access body would ban carbide. But above and beyond that they should not be prescribing what lighting system I use.

I know loads of cavers who use home made lighting systems. Where do they go to get their Mines of Lakeland Exploration Society certificate of approval?

Click to expand...

So it is acceptable to do a 700 feet ladder and abseil descent in a lead mine using a Maglite as long as you have BCA Insurance?
And before you ask, yes I have seen more than the odd person who feels their Maglite fit for purpose.

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Acceptable to whom?

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To you Graham, thats why I qouted you.
Fully in agreement with Duncs sentiments on the insurance isse to

There is absolutely nowt wrong with guidebooks giving lists of what tackle is usually required in a given cave. That, however, is far distant from an access body prescribing what tackle should be used, which you are suggesting is the case for the Mines of Lakeland Exploration Society. I do not whether this is the case, I am taking your word for this.

As far as lighting is concerned, I will simply ask the question: did the maglite prove adequate? Did the person concerned complete the trip without any lighting issues?

I dislike this attitude immensely. It starts with a seemingly reasonable request such as this and ends up with a complete lack of freedom for us to act in accordance with our own standards of experience and our own assessment of risk.

The only circumstances where I think such prescriptive instructions should be accepted are in the cases of conservation, where I understand that those who know the cave/mine best will know what is acceptable and in the case of qualified instructors who are guiding school groups, etc in a professional capacity.

Can I suggest we back up a little here :?:

I strong advocate freedom of choice with every aspect of caving and mine-exploring, not least on the kit an individual chooses to take and wether they join a club/ take insurance

Do access restrictions of any form bother me? Yes I strongly dislike restrictions to say the least
And it does worry me on occasion when someone turns up to go into a quite nasty enviroment with lighting not up to the task, it is fundemental to what we do :shock:
What I was suggesting with regard to equipment and grading is simply to give people the opputunity to choose for themselves if they and their equipment are upto the job. I am not suggesting regulating to any degree.....
I do not speak for Mines of Lakeland in any way, nor do I have anything much to do with them, what they actually say (roughly, not exact words) is that if you wish to take a trip with them or with a member acting as a guide then a certain standard of lighting is required. ie. if you take a Maglite on a Greenside trip they will not let you in.

I am not suggesting dictating conditions to anybody, infact if anything I am excesively loud in my opposition to it.
The intent of my comments is not to support any form of restriction but to encourage everybody to use suitable equipment (and training I guess) for the enviroment they will meet and where possible advise them of what that enviroment will be like.

I strongly disagree with Insurance and even more strongly disagree with gates, but I can only see good in offering advice as to what kind of equipment is a sensible choice for a particular trip.

Jagman said:

I strongly disagree with Insurance and even more strongly disagree with gates, but I can only see good in offering advice as to what kind of equipment is a sensible choice for a particular trip.

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None of the access systems that I help administer require visitors to carry insurance - hell I don't give a shit if you are bankrupted when we sue you. 8)

However, I strongly support gating. Too much of the underground in this country has been trashed and keeping people out helps. You don't believe me then compare the condition of Swildons fifty years ago and now and then do the same for St Cuthberts.

Some of these agreements specify "no novices" but none specify equipment. :!: