Bagshawe Cavern has two locked gates. Access to the areas beyond is controled by a leader system. This access control has helped to conserve sensitive areas of the cave.

Opinions on locked gates as a method of conservation would be appreciated.

Gating caves is always controversial - but it certainly helps in conservation. I suppose that is the lesser of the 2 evils. You only have to look at the minimal damage in St Cuthberts on Mendip (compared to other caves) after 50 yers of use, due to the leader system there to see that some conservation measures do work.

I cannot see any objections providing gaining access to a means of opening the gate (whether by key or use of a spanner) is easy enough.

Personally I don't like the gating of caves at all. Having said that gating has provided protection to certain caves/formations over the years.

I cannot see any objections providing gaining access to a means of opening the gate (whether by key or use of a spanner) is easy enough.

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Having a gate openable by spanner is near enough equivalent to open access - it doesn't take much effort to acquire a suitable spanner, which basically means anyone can enter... To obtain a key usually involves sending a letter and requesting one which generates its own problems which I'm not going into at this time.

Why is it deemed necessary to have gated caves and then enforce leaders onto people aswell? Yes there are some cavers out there that need nannying through a cave but the vast majority don't.. Its bad enough having gates, why can't it be left at that - a gate usually entails obtaining a key which usually requires you to be a member of a regional body - its not like anyone can just enter the cave is it!

Dunc said:

Having a gate openable by spanner is near enough equivalent to open access - it doesn't take much effort to acquire a suitable spanner, which basically means anyone can enter...

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I agree Dunc. I think that the idea behind using a Derbyshire Spanner, as it is sometimes called, is to make a reasonable effort to prevent the general public from wondering into a site, you have to make a conscious effort to get a spanner and undo a nut, whilst not placing too much restriction on access for cavers.

Key systems are difficult and not only for the people gaining access, they also require ongoing maintenance.

Personnally I am a bit ambivalant on the subject of leader systems. In principle they are a major restriction on the freedom to explore/enjoy sites and they deprive the individual of the opportunity to excersize thier own responsibility. On the other hand I have implemented such a scheme on a section of cave.
The cave was accessed via a dig which puts it within easy reach, the passages are pristene and extremely susceptible to damage. I couldnt bring myself to allow open access.

I believe that locked gates and leader systems are serious restrictions and shouldnt be used without a lot of consideration.

Well lads my way of thinking is that gates are a pain but in many places nessersary so why not have a standard cavers key ie why not a 10mm torx style simular to a allen key these only cost a couple of quid but its not the sort of thing that the average idoit would have to hand


This is what british waterways did with the canal network and as far as i know this works very well although over the last few years there key lock has been up dated

Your thoughts#?

Unfortunately, gating seems to be the only option for some systems.

Cumberland Cavern in Matlock, Derbyshire is a prime example of a system that should have been gated, especially with its historical background. For those of you who have ventured to this old Victorian Show cavern via Wapping Mine entrance, you will be aware of the graffiti inside this system, which is unbelievable and as a result of this, the entrance was filled by the owner. Is this a look into the future and fate of other systems?

On delicate systems where access is unrestricted and groups of the general public can roam freely within them, I am all for protecting formations and the general environment of the Cave/ Mine, and if that means blocking an entrance with a gate, then so be it.

However, gating of systems should not make access for bonafide Cavers a difficult issue (i.e. access to keys). In my humble opinion and in a perfect world, gated systems would be locked via a system where a master key, covering many different systems, is required for access (very similar to the Disabled "Radar" key access system). Clubs and bonafide Cavers could apply for a key at a very small charge (generates revenue for conservation work and implementing "Master Key" gates at vunerable systems).

Sounds like Titch has just reinvented what's known on Mendip as the CSCC Standard Padlock key; clubs have one or two each and they open a whole host of caves (leaders not required) where there are considerations of conservation and/or hazards away from which the general public/foolhardy children should be kept.

cap 'n chris: I've heard of the Mendip system, though never actually tried it. Do you think it works well? And if so, why do you think other areas haven't adopted it?

It appears to work well indeed. CSCC member clubs can apply for the standard padlock key which allows unfettered access to a load of mines/caves which have locks on as part of the negotiated access agreement usually stipulated by landowners. There are probably lots of other bits and bobs to do with the background/history of the scheme about which I do not know anything.

As for other areas not adopting a similar idea - I haven't a clue.

It sounds like a fairly civilised system, compared to the mess in Wales anyway.

There's a whole lot of interesting stuff on the pro's and cons of gating caves here:

http://www.w-o-w.com/caving/new-entrances/ne.html

('Cave X' is Illusion Pot (no longer 'secret'))

George.

This old chesnut. I would like to make a couple of points.

'Cavers' - its not just cavers who enjoy these places, many people dont want to be part of a club and they are just as interested in looking after these places. I think some 'cavers' get a bit high and mighty on this subject. Not you lot ofcourse your all very nice people

Marking of grills - I think this one needs attension Cap 'n Chris (I think your the guy for this) I think grills/access points need to be marked with a 'who to contact' so if someone is interested and wants to look inside they can make contact with someone and arrange a visit. I think this point needs injecting into a CSCC meeting sometime. I feel its a duty (but thats me personally) to help someone if they are interested, to educate them, take them for a look, show them the ropes etc. Then if they decide they like it they can join a club.

Please revisit this subject again tomorrow daytime and I'll respond - bit tired at the moment ... but there's more to mention on this topic - sleep beckons...

grills/access points need to be marked with a 'who to contact' so if someone is interested and wants to look inside they can make contact with someone and arrange a visit. I think this point needs injecting into a CSCC meeting sometime

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This topic was raised at the December 2004 CSCC meeting and I looked into prices for standard fireproof(!) signs to be made up (£18 each!!!); after some debate it was considered that placing signs inside sites was (a) ugly (b) liable to create extra "traffic" (c) a chore for whoever's phone number was the contact point (d) should it be a led trip (again, a chore) or loaning out a key (but would it be returned? - should there be a deposit etc.?).

In the end the decision was to leave things as they are (i.e. no signs) mostly based on cost and secondarily due to the "job creation" it would lead to for someone (probably myself as CSCC C&A chappie) who was the contactee. The present situation was also considered to be adequate (just) for people interested in sites; many of which have site name plates (especially the caves on Mendip) which allow basic research to be done - Mendip Underground contains access information for many sites and CSCC website/handbook contains more. In this age of web access it should also be relatively straightforward for keen explorers to research sites they wish to visit and find out the route to follow to get a key (or whatever).

However, since you have made a valid point about non-cavers having an interest in underground sites (including mines and caves) but not necessarily having caving contacts, I shall bring this topic up again at the next CSCC meeting as an Agenda item on your behalf. I believe that some of the cave name plates are in a poor state and need to be replaced in due course so perhaps your query is well timed?...

Mind you, if a decision was made to place signs with access contact details on them, remember there's a HELL OF A LOT OF SITES on Mendip so this is a MAJOR project and it wouldn't happen overnight!.... It's easy to suggest something like this but is much harder to make into a reality, I'm sure you'll agree!

P.S. The Fairy Cave Quarry sites have a "Contact this number if you require access" signs fixed on many of the gates there.

Cool,

Thanks C&C. Maybe instead or as well as a phone number a link to a website like the CSCC, or local groups website. Amazingly many people have no idea of the little setup you cavers have, totally no idea and many people still not on the net so I guess a sign would need to say, visit your local library, visit this website. The sign would have to be on the inside otherwise it would just get vandalized.

I was thinking of adding my own url to some of the Browns Folly gates because people are hacking the gates off instead of finding out how to gain proper access, but I would just get into trouble. Avon wildlife trust simply said 'NO ACCESS TO UNAUTHORISED' with a statement like that what are interested people expected to do. I find this attitude very unhelpfull and had simply created the opposite reaction. People dont do as they are told these days, people are creative and want in.

I'm willing to put some time and money into this.

c**tplaces said:

Amazingly many people have no idea of the little setup you cavers have....

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Pesumably members of "Axbridge Caving Group" don't consider themselves as 'cavers' then? :?

Ofcourse the ACG is full of hardcore cavers, I GROWL at you for such an presumption. I was speaking from personall experiance. In that I have been going underground on/off for the past 15 years and only got into it seriously in the last few years and untill the last year/two years had no idea the CSCC existed. Many people I meet via c**tplaces are totally interested and keen on exploring underground, have no idea of the rules and regulations and fuss over access. Many people dont want to join a club. These same people lug out bags of rubbish out of box and farlegh down tunnel.

I dont class myself as a caver yet, I'v only done a few and would class myself as a mine/quarry explorer really. Plus I dont fit in some caves

Growl? I thought hamsters only squeaked? - sorry, couldn't resist! :wink:

c**tplaces said:

I dont class myself as a caver yet, I'v only done a few and would class myself as a mine/quarry explorer really. Plus I dont fit in some caves

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If people want to get very picky then you could count the number of caves I've visited on the fingers of one hand. The number of mines visited is a different matter, and is documented in volumes. In general terms (ie. round here and with the public) 'caving' gets used to describe mine exploration as well.

I just felt it odd that someone speaking as an active 'caver' and a member of a 'caving club' should imply they are outside the 'caving' community with phases such as

...the little setup you cavers have...

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Yes tis odd I guess I am an active caver. The viewpoint comes from when I was outside of the community with no idea it had a front gate. The community as it existed for me back then was a couple mates who knew a cool place to go see on a weekend.

c**tplaces said:

I'm willing to put some time and money into this.

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I hope you are very rich then, 'cos you will have to replace damaged signs probably on a weekly basis.