The following statement has now been published on the CNCC website (click the 'Caution > Capability > Considerate' banner above).

The UK government have announced a new lockdown for England from Thursday 5th November to Wednesday 2nd December. The details of this lockdown can be found here:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/new-national-restrictions-from-5-november

The guidance emphasises staying at home, but with a few exemptions, including ?to exercise outdoors or visit an outdoor public place - with the people you live with, with your support bubble or, when on your own, with 1 person from another household...?. In terms of travelling you should ?avoid travelling in or out of your local area, and you should look to reduce the number of journeys you make? but you may travel ?for exercise if you need to make a short journey to do so?.

Clearly there are lots of subjective terms in this (?local?, ?short? and ?exercise?) which leaves interpretation to the individual.

However, the allowances for outdoor exercise and travelling to public places seems to suggest a desire to keep the nation enjoying safe outdoor recreation, perhaps in the belief that the risk of virus transmission between those participating in outdoor pursuits only within their household is low, and the physical and mental health benefits of ourdoor exercise are high.

Caving, being an outdoor activity and exercise, and one which can take place in public places (including all caves on CRoW access land) could reasonably be considered a permissible activity.

If you are continuing caving over the coming month, what is clear is that it must be within a household, bubble, or between two people from different households, and we suggest that it should be within your nearest caving region.

We suggest avoiding caves where obtaining permission would typically involve calling on the landowner, or the approach means passing through farms or residential areas. There are plenty of great caves in our region that can be visited within these suggestions. Use the online booking system for Ingleborough, Leck and Casterton Fells to help avoid meeting others in your chosen cave.

Finally, remember that a rescue under the current circumstances would be complicated and would expose our cave rescue volunteers to high risk from the virus, particularly as the R-number is high in our region. Cave sensibly, pick a trip that is within your capabilities and presents few hazards. Pay particular attention to weather forecasts as winter is upon us and water levels are high.

Stay safe!
CNCC

from

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-guidance-on-phased-return-of-sport-and-recreation/guidance-for-the-public-on-the-phased-return-of-outdoor-sport-and-recreation


Travelling for physical activity

You can travel for physical activity. Ideally use your nearest, local appropriate venue to reduce pressure on transport infrastructure. But you can travel to outdoor open space irrespective of distance.

Latest government advice is even more clear Beardy.

You can and should still travel for exercise, if you need to make a short journey to do so.

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My emphasis, but this is clearly one step further than previous guidance.

Full advice: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/new-national-restrictions-from-5-november?priority-taxon=774cee22-d896-44c1-a611-e3109cce8eae#travel

Hi Beardy, as per the discussion in the CSCC's thread on their guidance, we think that link you provided is relating to the current regulations and not the ones that come into force on 5th November. That page contains a link to the newer guidance for Lockdown 2, which specifically states 'short' distance. Because it states that the page was updated on 2nd November (no doubt to add a link to the 5th November guidance), this incorrectly gives the impression it relates to the new lockdown. In summary, the guidance for the new lockdown period does not stipulate travel is allowed irrespective of distance; only a 'short' distance, which is relative and subjective.

Bear in mind that if every activity group in Great Britain chooses to interpret the rules in such a way that it somehow magically makes it still possible to carry on their activity regardless, then that isn't a lockdown at all. If everyone does this routine, as they will no doubt try to, there will be no beneficial effect. I'd love to see the exchange between a skeptical traffic officer and a couple of cavers reading back that first post verbatim as justification, especially if that 'short distance' turns out to be fifty miles. And we've never clarified whether caving is an outdoor activity - certainly not the extent that it now 'is' outdoors, or is for the duration of lockdown. My current dig face is most certainly not 'outdoors', and is smaller in volume than the space under this desk.

I'd really like to carry on caving too, BTW, but I wouldn't quote that lot above as justification. This 'interpretation' is clearly being made by a group, not an individual, and is suggesting that we as individuals make the same 'interpretation'. I'm struggling with the language used - far too many nudges and winks. I'm no lawyer, but if it makes me feel uncomfortable, it will possibly make a lawyer feel rather excited.

I wish I didn't have to agree with you  :bow:,
On a tangent to this matter. I heard first hand this week,  Caving supplies / Buxton; from the Man his-self, Mr. P. Brown (not for financial reasons, but as  a passing of time, and the right time for him and  Chandra,) the business is not too long for this  world!!
I would personally like to thank him,  his  advice, his service to myself , and  i'm sure many others.
Still time to visit or order, or thank him/ & Chandra in person.  rather  than a raggerty  post on here!!!
Thanks Caving Supplies. Buxton.
Owd-Git

pwhole said:

And we've never clarified whether caving is an outdoor activity - certainly not the extent that it now 'is' outdoors, or is for the duration of lockdown.

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I thought it had been established that it?s outdoors. What some people have questioned is whether it?s open air

The Welsh government (well, one of their advisory committees) are the ones who brought up open air, in relation to CRoW, hence the recent court hearing. The UK government includes caving amongst outdoor activities.

MPs are voting on the guidance today: https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/coronavirus-mps-to-vote-on-new-lockdown/

Go caving, he would.

https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWars/comments/dbb89f/i_visited_yoda_cave/

He ended up in a Swamp, but wasn't that the nick name of one of the huts?

As access officer I'm totally ok with the CNCC statement.  All the caveats and caution is there but there is nothing that will stop some individuals and small groups caving especially in their 'local' area.  Nothing in the guidance suggests otherwise.  For me personally many caves are within a walk and others a short drive away.  I also have people in the same household to cave with. 

pwhole and owd git might find that DCA offer a different statement for their area as all the caving regions have different issues to manage.  CNCC cover Scotland but we tend to let the folk from Grampian take a lead there.

I'd suggest that cavers, (in the north anyway), have not been any part of the huge increase in covid.  I suspect that government ideas like eat out to help out, sending thousands of students back to university and having confusing and conflicting advice that the population has ignored has been more likely the cause - and that's not to even mention the Dominic Cummings effect.

I think I will still be caving, I will heed the advice and forgo trying to get through places like Broken Finger and Strangle pot, for the next month or so. I will cave as suggested with just one other person and I guess due to carrying capacity this limits trips somewhat too. Prob stick to grade 3 or less I guess for the next month.

The distance thing concerns me as basically my nearest caves are about an hour away in either direction (Peak or Dales), but I really need to go caving I don't think I can cope with another stint of not caving and having absolutely nothing to look forward to.

I have just been chatting to one of our kids who?s on placement. He and his mates are rotating through covid wards and the brutal truth is those dying under 70-80 are largely obese.

Getting as many people as possible to a BMI under 30 would slash the death rate for all but the very old. Basic public health. Telling people this is what the government is running scared of, and that I do find disappointing.

So I think it extremely unlikely that outdoor sports are going to be discouraged in any way. And if such a thing happened, making a big fuss about it would be the ticket.

The statement would be better if it referred to the actual legislation as well as the guidance. In the past the two have diverged.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1200/pdfs/uksi_20201200_en.pdf

Obviously this is liable to amendment, and presumably was drafted in a hurry.
 
This defines what is meant by "public outdoor place" 7(4), and doesn't cover all caves.

The statement

Clearly there are lots of subjective terms in this (?local?, ?short? and ?exercise?) which leaves interpretation to the individual.

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isn't true.

Logically if anyone can interpret the terms however they want, the legislation is meaningless, and in any dispute the individual will not be in a position to provide the interpretation. It would better to describe those terms as poorly defined and if possible look at how those terms have been defined in any recent disputes during the previous lockdown.

However in the actual legislation, the terms 'local' and 'short' don't appear in any relevant context.

The exception for exercise can be found at 6 (2) c.

Reminder. The legislation and guidance only covers England, and in Scotland the regulations are more complicated.

How many members of the public read the weighty tomes of government legislation.  If anything guidance seems more user friendly.

I seem to remember in Lockdown 1, legislation and guidance seemed pretty clear to most that we were to stay at home.  However, the correct interpretation of the law was that in fact we were free to travel, with covid, 200 miles or more to a patental residence to assist with child care.  13 or was it 14 days later it was then ok to drive 30 miles each way to check out our eyesight.  As Downing street later confirmed that was all apparently ok within the  STAY AT HOME legislation.

Lockdown 2 is far broader than L1 and there are many more ways that exercise is permitted and in any case there are likely to be far more Cummings like interpretations of the legislation for the wealthy elite.

I?d call it a reasonable attempt to stay away from other people. It?s never been obvious to me how you give a disease for which you now have immunity to someone else by driving down the main road to Barny and back. I think people just don?t like him for some reason or other in the Grundiad. Can?t imagine why.

When I was driving around at that time it was pretty obvious that most of the holiday cottages and second homes near here were mobbed. 3-4 BMW?s parked outside some. People had fled the cities if they could.

On the subject of really not giving a toss, one of mine was throwing statues in a dock with several thousand others a while back. Then they all went home to their families, and then back to college, and then home again etc. All by June. It is quite clear to me from talking to them that none of them ever stayed at home on their own, they all whooped it up with their friends. And when they stopped lectures, they did it even more. Same will happen now. The statue lobber finally caught it last month, so I suppose I might let him home for Xmas.

Two wrongs don?t make a right

How many members of the public read the weighty tomes of government legislation.  If anything guidance seems more user friendly.

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The point is that the legislation is what would* be applied to ordinary members of the public** in any dispute.  As a body giving advice it would be wise to at least refer to the legislation and highlight that the guidance is just that, a user friendly summary of the law that isn't a definitive statement of what is allowed or not.


* In the event the authorities are inclined and in a position to actually enforce the new lockdown. 

** ie people not squatting in the cabinet office.

*** or driving to Barnard Castle.

I think the wording contained 'should'. That would allow so-called advisors (e.g. bozo's puppet master) to drive quite a way to test their eyesight. Equally it would allow the likes of dodgy discredited professors to allow their 'friends with benefits' to visit. Of course any normal member of the public will be shot on sight for such anti-reich activities.
Oh well, one wonders what next week's spin the bottle of random policy will be.