Backing up a solo descent.

Gritstone

Member
So I've been caving for a little over two years mainly alone and usually walking or easily climbable  drop ins. I'm very able with SRT and have used it often underground and overground. I have always been a climber and when abseiling I've backed up with a prusic for extra piece of mind. My question is this,  is there a method od protecting a solo descent using a stop while underground. I can self beat going up the rope is it possible to self beat going down when your device requires both hands to operate.
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
Gritstone said:
My question is this,  is there a method od protecting a solo descent using a stop while underground.

Why would you need to? I don't quite understand the issue.
 

yuvals

Member
East Europeans use Rack/Simple and a hand Ascender on "short descend mode" (a finger catch the Cam) as a backup.
This method is very fast for passing a Rebelay on descent since the hand Ascender is already installed (if you use it to pass Rebelays) and you can also use the foot loop.

I don't like this method, I simply use the rebelay/knot on the end of the rope/bottom as a descending backup  :eek:
 

Wolfo

Member
yuvals said:
I don't like this method, I simply use the rebelay/knot on the end of the rope/bottom as a descending backup  :eek:

Same here, I usually clip in the cowtail below the decender.
Usually you f*** up at rebelays, so this procedure gives a bit extra safety.
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
yuvals said:
East Europeans use Rack/Simple and a hand Ascender on "short descend mode" (a finger catch the Cam) as a backup.

This is a known method but has a negative side-effect which is that the cam teeth regularly and unavoidably snag on the rope during descent and cause visible/real damage to the protective sheath. It is commonplace to witness such damage when visiting overseas caves which are pre-rigged.

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Using a knot at the end/bottom of a pitch is not really a back up as the elongation of the rope (especially if combined with an uncontrolled rapid descent) would mean impact onto rock. Knotting the end of a rope is default to avoid a fatality if the rope is too short for the pitch.

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Still bewildered about the OP question and trying to picture things: I wonder whether Gritstone is using the Petzl Stop in the prescribed manner or whether some weird methodology is creating the supposed need for a back-up. Perhaps even mistakenly calling the descender a Stop when it might not be one, a Simple for instance? If so, then perhaps structured coaching would be a useful move. Puzzled.  :confused:
 

markpot

Member
I think to answer your question Gritstone,we need more detail on  the issue you are worried about?rope rub?cluch and plumet?there are many solutions depending on the situation. I cave alone a fair bit and have adressed this question alot.
 

Gritstone

Member
Thanks for all the advice guy's. It may be me being a big puff but the reason I'd like to back up on the descent is the consiquenses of a fall underground alone are far greater than a fall outside on the edge. I rarely ever see a soul underground so a fall entering the cave would leave a long wait before the rescue call went in. I always back up with a prussic outside however with a stop my right hand has the brake rope and my left is releasing the Stop. On the way up I use a rope grab on a second rope to protect but going down I can't get round the two hands thing. Disabling the cam seems a bit daft but at least I would be able to back up with a prussic on the lifeline. At the minute I'm just lowering in without backup but was wondering whether anyone had a system to back up there solo descents. Sorry about the auto correct it didn't like the word belay and though headphones by Dr Dre would be a better choice of word.
 

pwhole

Well-known member
If you're that concerned, you'll just have to rig two ropes industry-style and use a professional fall-arrester on the backup rope, like an ASAP or similar, which requires no hands to operate, unlike a Shunt or a Duck. It's a pain, but that's the only serious way of doing what you want, if you're descending solo. That said, you'll still be hanging in your harness for a long time until the rescue comes if your backup kicks in and you're unable to start climbing to unload it - and depending where you are in a system, that could be as serious as a fall that injures you.

That said, if your main rope fails, it's either the anchors that were suspect or the rope's rigged to rub on a sharp edge, neither of which are acceptable practice, even in groups. In which case, whatever your backup rope is attached to needs to be more reliable than the original anchor or that'll also fail under a shock load, rendering the fall-arrester useless anyway. In which case the original rope should have been rigged from the more reliable anchor too! There's usually only one set of (usually reliable) anchors on most cave pitches. Wouldn't it be less stressful (and cheaper/lighter) to go caving with someone else if doing SRT?
 

Madness

New member
From reading your last post it seems that you're rigging two ropes on each pitch. I assume then, you're not doing caves that require much rope, and therefore must be missing out on some fantastic trips.

Ever thought of joining a club and caving with other people? Not only is it safer, but it's more enjoyable.
 

pwhole

Well-known member
Actually thinking a bit more, if you get a Simple, Banana or a rack descender, you do only need one hand for the brake rope and can then operate a Shunt on a backup rope with the other hand. But it's still a bit of a faff rigging everything with two ropes.
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
Gritstone said:
I'm very able with SRT and have used it often underground and overground.

Based on recent comments (above), may I humbly enquire whether you are aware of what the 'S' & 'R' in the acronym 'SRT' stand for?
 
I SRT on my own sometimes - on occasion there just aren't any mates around when i have free time or it's very last minute.  Personally I tend to do shorter trips where I can be a bit tighter with my call so less chance (in theory) of spending hrs on your own. I am also more cautious with weather and I take my time.

I think unless you want to rig a full second set up as already suggested, then you either have to accept the risk and mitigate as you can, or don't go SRT caving on your own.

Being worried about safety and thinking about options / asking for advice does not render you a "Big Puff" - not that I am happy with the use of that term for any reason really.
 

TheBitterEnd

Well-known member
TBH I'm struggling to think of failure modes or scenarios where a back-up helps assuming you follow standard SRT practice and check your stop before unclipping the cows tail.
 

Mike Hopley

New member
At the risk of stating the obvious: the Stop's handle is your backup (not that it's required -- a Simple is fine too).

Simplicity and ease-of-use are overlooked aspects of safety. Your procedures are more likely to go wrong when you make them complicated, difficult, and time-consuming.

When done well, SRT is very safe. I would encourage you to build up your confidence doing SRT, rather than trying to "fix" it by introducing a second rope or abseiling with an additional backup device.

And I would strongly encourage you to join a club, go caving with other people, and get some input from experienced cavers. If you really care about your safety, you'll do this.
 

Fulk

Well-known member
Many years ago two of us set off down Meregill Hole (via Aven Entrance) planning to do the trip using ?double rope techniques?; just getting all the rope through the little entrance crawl proved to be an utter ball-ache (predictably, I suppose). To make matters worse we were using thick (11 mm), stiff Bluewater rope. I think that we aborted at the top of the 4th pitch, and struggled out. I never bothered with DRT again, and would endorse the advice given above to join a club ? or, at least, find one or two like-minded individuals to go caving with.
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
IIRC there was an absolute epic at Golondrinas with a film crew that were (due to H&S expectations) using DRT; the entwinement resulted in something like a six hour hang up. DRT in caves was successfully countered by ACI when there were plans to introduce it across the board for the workplace. The last thing you want to be doing in caves is DRT for a great number of reasons - the principle one being safety, counter-intuitive though that may sound.

Fulk said:
I would endorse the advice given above to join a club ? or, at least, find one or two like-minded individuals to go caving with.

3rd way - get some coaching/tuition from a CIC. A list of them is here: https://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/doku.php?id=training:cic_holders
 
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