Graham raised a point in the Thee Deeps thread about whether raising money for a good cause by going caving was a good idea.

Let's list the forms of motivation behind cave activities.

1. Recreation.
2. Research (arguably the same as 1 if you enjoy doing it.)
3. For business - Show caves being the prime example.
4. Personal financial gain. Professional cavers leading paying groups into caves.
5. Financial gain for others - charity event.

If it's OK to go caving for personal gain, then it's OK to do it to benefit others, surely. The impact on the caves is no greater, and arguably less in the case of charity events, assuming the group doing it would probably be leisure caving anyway if they weren't raising money.

No doubt each of us has a different view on which of the forms of motivation are acceptable.

Fairly put, Peter. I'm afraid I do not have time to answer in detail now and the debate will doubtless have moved on by the time I am back here but suffice it to say that there is a high degree of controversy surrounding both 3 and 4 on your list: many showcave developments have been cricitised for the way in which they are run and for their environmental impact and there have been many protracted debates over the years about the ethics of professionally led trips, just ask Mr Sparrow!

However, while I come to this particular debate as a caver and one who is passionate about caves, I am also extremely pissed off with the modern concept that it must be alright to do just about anything if it is "for charity".

IMHO...

Doing anything for charity takes time and effort. Leaflets, getting sponsors, collecting the cash etc. etc.

If someone fancies doing something and putting this effort in, then good luck to them and well done. The actual event doesn't matter, it's trivial, and to try to consider some activities "OK" and others "not" is a bit "bah,humbug"

If you don't wish to support an event, then you don't have to (thats why its called charity). There is plenty to critisize in this world, but in my book people getting off their backside to TRY to do something good isn't one of them...

Personally I'm glad there are professionals leading trips, I am a novice and although a member of a club, I have very limited time and live a long way from any caving area. The people I have met in the club so far have been very friendly and helpful but the chances of me attending enough trips frequently enough to actually learn anything are very slim.

When I've paid an outdoor instructor I can go when I can grab the chance, take who I like with me and not be too worried about spoiling anyone elses trip by being too slow or not having the right skills.

I've learnt alot about the ethics of caving from reading this forum and can't see too much conflict with this in being professionally guided

I am also extremely pissed off with the modern concept that it must be alright to do just about anything if it is "for charity".

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I don't classify a caver going caving as doing "just about anything". He is doing something he has a certain expertise in. I would agree with you if hoards of non-cavers descended on Swildons to raise money, but, it ain't going to happen.

All are bad to some degree. It depends on the impact of each event and how frequent the event. For example a paid leader taking a group into a cave several times a week will have more impact than an individual recreation or charity caver entering the cave on a much less regular basis.
    Research may also cause significant harm to the cave environment...

andymorgan said:

All are bad to some degree. It depends on the impact of each event and how frequent the event. For example a paid leader taking a group into a cave several times a week will have more impact than an individual recreation or charity caver entering the cave on a much less regular basis.
    Research may also cause significant harm to the cave environment...

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So are you suggesting the best way to preserve our caves is to not go caving?

Ciao,
Peter

I think he's suggesting that we should be more aware of our impact on caves no matter what our motivation is for exploring them.

peterdevlin said:

So are you suggesting the best way to preserve our caves is to not go caving?

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Are you commenting on my lack of caving this year? Lack of money and time rather than ecological considerations are behind this 

My point was that things considered to be benign like research may have more impact than other things considered to be more 'bad' such as sport cavers.

andymorgan said:

peterdevlin said:

So are you suggesting the best way to preserve our caves is to not go caving?

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Are you commenting on my lack of caving this year? Lack of money and time rather than ecological considerations are behind this 

My point was that things considered to be benign like research may have more impact than other things considered to be more 'bad' such as sport cavers.

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I was just teasing you.

Truthfully, like most cavers, I try to do my best not to impact the cave environment, but sometimes feel guilty that I'm contributing to the impact.

On a different note, Andy, did you make it out to Spain?  I'm back off to my wet little dig in Bull Pot Witches this weekend.

Ciao,
Peter

I don't think you could have more impact on the cave envoironment than cave digging, just look @ Templeton.
However nearly all new cave in England in now found by cave digging, so if you don't dig it
you want be able to cave it.
digging is GREAT!!!!!!!

Professional cavers don't make profit from caves - they earn a living (and a pretty crap one at that - thankfully if you enjoy caving that's the bonus to make up for the lousy pay): painters and decorators earn more.

Should teachers be paid for what they do?
Should bus drivers earn money?
Should anyone doing a job be expected to do it for love, nada, gratis? - and starve to death?

BTW there's a good case to be put that professionally led trips have less impact (per person) than club trips but that's another debate....

AndyF said:

IMHO...

Doing anything for charity takes time and effort. Leaflets, getting sponsors, collecting the cash etc. etc.

If someone fancies doing something and putting this effort in, then good luck to them and well done. The actual event doesn't matter, it's trivial, and to try to consider some activities "OK" and others "not" is a bit "bah,humbug"

If you don't wish to support an event, then you don't have to (thats why its called charity). There is plenty to critisize in this world, but in my book people getting off their backside to TRY to do something good isn't one of them...

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Following this to its logical conclusion means that it would be OK to smash caves to pieces with a hammer as long as it was for charity, surely?....

whitelackington said:

I don't think you could have more impact on the cave envoironment than cave digging, just look @ Templeton.
However nearly all new cave in England in now found by cave digging, so if you don't dig it
you want be able to cave it.
digging is GREAT!!!!!!!

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In what way, Whitelackington - bear in mind that six years ago the site was nothing more than a depression in the field. I would think we've had a greater environmental impact on the field that used to be there.

Good point, Hughie. Surely, before digging commenced at Templeton there wasn't a cave there at all?.... Discuss.

Two points, pertaining to comments earlier above:

1. "Professional" and "competent" do not necessarily mean the same thing.  Just because someone gets paid to cave doesn't necessarily mean they are better or worse than someone doing it for pleasure.  Some club cavers are exceptionally competent - so are some who do it for a living.  I'm very much an amateur - but a busy one, so it sometimes suits me to direct a keen incomer to someone who will charge them to teach them, as with the best will in the world I can't give them the time I'd like.

2. Someone above made slightly disparaging remarks about show caves being environmentally bad.  Let's not forget the positive contribution show caves make to cave conservation.  I cite the example of Treak Cliff Cavern at Castleton.  It was turned into a show cave very soon after it was discovered.  There are many fragile straws within minutes of easy caving from the entrances.  Can you imagine what state Treak Cliff would be in now if it hadn't been used as a show cave?  And show caves can usefully educate Mr & Mrs Public about the need for cave conservation, so that if these people are ever in a position to cause damage to caves or karst, maybe they will think twice before doing so.  I accept that there are some environmental problems associated with show caves but let's not forget all the positive aspects of caves which can be viewed by the public.

cap 'n chris said:

Following this to its logical conclusion means that it would be OK to smash caves to pieces with a hammer as long as it was for charity, surely?....

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  :-\  That's a ridiculous conclusion to come too. Why on earth would it? Those of use that use the caves, whether professionally, recreationally, or for charity, I believe, have considerable respect for them.

cap 'n chris said:

Professional cavers don't make profit from caves - they earn a living (and a pretty crap one at that - thankfully if you enjoy caving that's the bonus to make up for the lousy pay): painters and decorators earn more.

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Definition of profit:- financial gain. I'd imagine a professional caver may well use this "financial gain" to live off. If funds are inadequate, and not supplemented by other means, ie financial outlay is greater than returns then the professional caver could be a bankrupt caver. You still think professional cavers don't make profit from caves?

Sorry to be controversial.

"Making profit from" is an emotionally loaded expression.

For instance, do farmers "make a profit from the land" or "earn a living from it"?

In terms of the expressions, probably both. However, to earn a living suggests that work/toil is engaged in, the return for which is the ability to continue life on planet earth.

Profit is also what is left after expenses, depreciation, wages etc.. Therefore it's fair to say that in many instances self employed people make no profit whatsoever although they do manage to earn a living from their efforts.

While we're on this topic. Can someone rationally and reasonably outline why people shouldn't be allowed to earn a living working in the countryside?

"Charity" is actually big business, employs tens of thousands of people and turns over billions every year. Some of it is funded from well-meaning donations from private people, but a lot of the money comes from rather more dubious sources....

- from big businesses, as a cheap way of buying themselves out of much more expensive obligations or to gain political favours
- through gambling...good old "idiot taxes"
- from aid budgets of governments, often with highly political strings attached
- through more or less benign religious movements (the assets of which at least partly stem from quite considerable crimes against humanity and political wheeling and dealing some hundreds of years ago....I think you can guess which religious movement I might be referring to in particular)

Compared to this, money collected for a good cause by a few potholers having a laugh seems pretty clean to me. So good luck to 'em.

Mark