cavemaps.org

The cavemaps.org website has had some significant updates:
  • Almost all of the cave locations in the NC2 area have now been accurately fixed
  • A good proportion of those in the NC1 area have also been accurately fixed (with thanks to Goydenman for help with Nidderdale)
  • You can now download the GPS references in GPX format for use in MemoryMap or for loading into your GPS receiver
  • Several other enhancements
Enjoy.

 
M

Martin

Guest
I saw the website that you have put together, and I thought that I would write to say that you have put together a rather neat site. 

I am doing similar stuff, at http://seagrass.goatchurch.org.uk/~mjg/cgi-bin/map.py, I think we may have talked before.  One issue that I have been considering is the gathering of data, as there is a limit to how much data a single person can collect and keep track of.  I have started looking at the use of wikipedia for determining cave entrances, which would provide usefull links to overviews of the caves when they are clicked on.  Would you mind me putting the entrance data that you have collected into wikipedia?  They would go in lists of caves pages in the first instance.  This could kick-start a communal effort in collecting the data for the world.

What do you see as being the advantages to the side bar?  I guess it could help find caves in a particular region.  It also limits the number of entrance pointers that may slow down your browser.

I like the way that you have manipulated your scanned survey of Birks Fell Cave, with the automatically generated yellow background.  Would it be possible to let me have a copy of the original survey?  I would like to try putting it on my website, and experimenting with other ways of rendering it.  Most of the surveys that I have so far done have not been in areas with detailed satelite imagery.

Ultimately some common repository of cave surveys should be created.  Possibly in geoTIFF file formats, but that is probably not clear yet.  We are also looking at ways to make Tunnel directly output cave tiles, to prevent scaling and rotation artifacts mucking things up too much.

Any thoughts on this or help I can give, then let me know.

Cheers,
Martin
 
D

Dave H

Guest
Due to the lack of interest in presenting and advertising surveys via my website, I was think of converting it into a wiki around the time that Bubba set up the wiki on this site. I thought it best to back off for a while, and not set up what could be seen as a rival (if the ukCaving wiki generated a large section on surveys). Another thought was to place links in the wiki references to caves if a survey existed on my site, but I've not done that yet.

You must remember that while many people are proud of their surveys and will gladly place it on a website or in a magazine for all and sundary to view, some clubs see them as a source of revenue and are much more protective of them. Even with the surveys on my site being obsficated so that the original has to be purchased from the publisher (whose link is presented below the image) if it is to be used underground, the people/clubs that I have spoken to have been very unwilling to contribute (Cerberus and especially Shepton Mallet excluded)

I am more than willing to throw my weight behind some kind of colaborative effort.

The William Pengelly Trust and of course, the BCRA CSG have shown some interest in similar ideas in the past, especially with regard to cataloging and possibly storing the original surveying data (a lot of which is apparently kept secret and is lost when people leave caving).
 
K

ken

Guest
nice site, thanks for doing the work that others like me can look.
 
P

Paul.Wheelhouse

Guest
Thanks this is great.
Just looking at 3 counties...outlying areas.....
are these based on places someone has been?
I have been looking for swilly hole for some time (see separate posts) and the one on here is quite different from the grid ref in the book....same for some of the others (think it was Angel Drainpipe we were looking for, unsucessfully, one time)....
???
 
P

Paul.Wheelhouse

Guest
just noticed taht caves in red need to be confirmed.......
 

underground

Active member
It occurs to me that for something such as an online survey repository / mapping venture to become a real success, collaboration is the only way forward- I clicked on the three links above and found a: A cave survey site with a few surveys in Europe (Martin's), and a Google maps based page with very little implementation of the useful features of the API- no search facility for example (still can't find the Birks Fell reference that martin mentions.) Let alone no support for my mouse wheel to zoom...

And the third, I didn't click on, but it was MartinR's Mendip site which seems very far advanced in terms of utilising some open source code.

Unfortunately my criticisms will seem targeted at cavemaps -largely because I'm a: familiar with the Google UI, and b: martin's page seemed to display cave surveys, which seemed to be accurate representations of their paper cousins.

I'm using Firefox in the latest version, and I can't use the scroll wheel, no right click functionality, the maximum zoom seems very limited, and when the cave I navigated to via the sidebar is arrowed, there is no useful info displayed (such as grid / GPS coordinates)

At the moment, I  can't really see the value.

This may be because the page is in development of course, in which case, I slightly withdraw my comments (although in my world, a poor first web experience is generally the defining one which prevents future hits - both personally and on a professional level)
 

martinr

Active member
underground said:
.... MartinR's Mendip site which seems very far advanced in terms of utilising some open source code.

Correction:

The Mendip site http://www.bdcc.co.uk/mendip.html is by Bill Chadwick of BDCC.  :-[
 
Martin said:
One issue that I have been considering is the gathering of data, as there is a limit to how much data a single person can collect and keep track of.  I have started looking at the use of wikipedia for determining cave entrances, which would provide usefull links to overviews of the caves when they are clicked on. 
Wikis are good. I've thought about putting the list of georeferences of the entrances on the UK Caving wiki so that anyone can easily contribute, but I haven't got round to it yet. I'm not sure what the best format is. Some caves on the wiki have already been georeferenced by linking to John Gardner's site. This is good, but it would also be good to have a single index page with all the georeferences in one place.
Would you mind me putting the entrance data that you have collected into wikipedia?
Of course not. The data is available for anyone to use.

What do you see as being the advantages to the side bar?  I guess it could help find caves in a particular region.  It also limits the number of entrance pointers that may slow down your browser.
Yes, it gives the site a bit of structure and makes it more scaleable.

Ultimately some common repository of cave surveys should be created. 
Yes, and Wikimedia Commons might be a good platform for it.

Possibly in geoTIFF file formats, but that is probably not clear yet. 
Geotiffs are problematic and are going out of fashion fast. KML/KMZ has a lot going for it. But if you want a format that is infinitely scalable and is fast to access over the Internet, then Google Map tiles are the way to go.
We are also looking at ways to make Tunnel directly output cave tiles, to prevent scaling and rotation artifacts mucking things up too much.
That sounds really good.
 
Hopefully this  :) might raise awareness a bit

http://googlemapsapi.blogspot.com/2008/01/put-your-map-on-map.html


A few points :

1) For the Mendip map I worked closely with CSCC to ensure that we did not post entrance locations without access arrangements. This is to help promote good landowner relations. www.bdcc.co.uk/mendip.html uses an XML export of the CSCC's MS Access database. The exported file is hosted on www.bdcc.co.uk to avoid cross domain sripting restrictions. Perhaps those amongst us interested in this should get together (internationally ?!) and develop our own XML schema for on-line cave database(s).

2) We could co-ordinate a national/regional repository of rasterised cave surveys for display in Google Maps. However these take up quite a lot of server space and need to be generated from a source survey of appropriate scale. KML overlays are an alternative but for decent rendering  performance in a browser will probably need to be simplified somewhat from the master survey (I believe Therion can generate KML output). If we just want to view surveys on line then PDF is fine.

3) The OS are supposed to be releasing their answer to Google maps very soon (based on OpenLayers). It will include 1:50K mapping - no 1:25K and no aerial imagery. I doubt it is a better base for displaying cave locations than the Google Satellite images.

4) Feel free to use the Google Maps Ordnance Survey Grid overlay that I have developed (see http://www.bdcc.co.uk/Gmaps/BdccGmapBits.htm ) on any caving related Google Maps site. I have recently updated it so it does not slow down pan/zoom and calculates more / better grid spacing intervals.

Bill
 

underground

Active member
LoneRanger said:
  you have put together a rather neat site.  Posted by: Martin
:)
  Thanks this is great.  Posted by: Paul.Wheelhouse
::)
  nice site, thanks for doing the work that others like me can look.  Posted by: ken
;)
  At the moment, I  can't really see the value.  Posted by: underground
:-\

Three out of four. Thankyou.

Judging by the above comments, I'm missing something! I hadn't meant my comment to be taken in isolation from the rest of my post; in the context of the difficulties i had (i.e. not being able to acheive anything with cavemappers page), the comment stands. But only in that context.

Can anyone suggest how to improve my experience?
 

footleg

New member
Having put together a Googlemap site for cave data myself, I can appreciate many of the obstackles which face anyone attempting to produce something. My site is already on version 3 as I learn how to do new things with the Googlemap api and get my head around Javascript. I'm sure there is plenty more I could do. But the important thing is that people are out there trying these things out and exploring what is possible. Each site has it's own approach. I liked the full screen map on Bill's mendip map, and was frustrated by the small amount of my screen used on Martin's and Cave Mappers sites. It took a couple of looks to work out how to make the markers appear on cavemaps.org as I just expected to see stuff on the map from the start. But each site tries to do things in ways which generate new ideas. The problem of how to make the white space on a survey tranparent while still keeping all the text and symbols visible was neatly solved on the Birks Fell survey on Cavemaps.org. The full screen problem was solved on Bill's mendip map. The difficulty in adding new surveys was tackled by Martin's site. My site suffers from the problem of how to handle 2800 site markers in one map. But what helps is getting constructive feedback from users, and sharing ideas for what we want from these sites. So keep on working on your sites, and users please keep the ideas coming. Just take a moment to consider your responses before posting along the lines of 'I didn't like it, what is the point?'  ;)
 

underground

Active member
I feel that the points i raised were valid feedback- I couldn't do anything with the site so it didn't add any value to my experience. Perhaps someone would care to provide some constructive feedback to the points I raised in return?

 
The Birks Fell cave overlay sensibly uses two different cave survey images. One without words used when the scale bar shows 100m or more and one with legend words when the scale bar shows 50m or less. However on the <50m map, I have to turn my head on its side to read the words which are only legible when zoomed right in. This amply demonstrates the problems we have using re-processed raster overlays.

My Swildon's demo on the Google blog has similar rotation and legibility problems. The Upper Flood survey ( http://tinyurl.com/2qfl56 ) is happily oriented North in the first place though has some pretty ropey text (I could not make MapCruncher's PDF input work from Therion's PDF output so had to go via a big raster - I must try again).

One day it would be good to integrate Google Maps transparent png tile generation right into the cave surveying apps. That way we could get cave outlines appropriate to the map zoom level and readable legends. A lot of work I suspect.
 

footleg

New member
underground said:
I feel that the points i raised were valid feedback- I couldn't do anything with the site so it didn't add any value to my experience. Perhaps someone would care to provide some constructive feedback to the points I raised in return?

I'll do my best  ;)

To answer some snippets from your earlier post:

underground said:
a Google maps based page with very little implementation of the useful features of the API- no search facility for example (still can't find the Birks Fell reference that martin mentions.) Let alone no support for my mouse wheel to zoom...

This is useful feedback in terms of a couple of suggestions are made, but the tone is unduly negative which tends to put people on the defensive from the off. The phrase 'very little implementation of the useful features of the API' is less helpful than a list of all the features you would like to see. Are there more than the two you listed?

underground said:
And the third, I didn't click on, but it was MartinR's Mendip site which seems very far advanced in terms of utilising some open source code.

This reads like you are saying that using open source is better than a proprietary API. Is that what you mean here?

underground said:
I'm using Firefox in the latest version, and I can't use the scroll wheel, no right click functionality, the maximum zoom seems very limited, and when the cave I navigated to via the sidebar is arrowed, there is no useful info displayed (such as grid / GPS coordinates)

Some helpful feedback again, but if you could say what you expected to happen on right click for example that would be even better.

underground said:
At the moment, I  can't really see the value.

Again unduly negative. You appear to be putting down the effort put into the map(s) without saying what it is you were hoping to gain from them.

I guess my main point is that a little encouragement goes a long way, where as negativity just puts peoples backs up.
 
I agree Footleg. We should be talking up and exploring the possibilities rather than moaning.

"And the third, I didn't click on, but it was MartinR's Mendip site which seems very far advanced in terms of utilising some open source code." makes little sense to me - I don't believe I used any 'open source code' .

Scroll wheel zoom is supported by Google Maps - at first it had its problems and I opted to disable it - I'll give it another try. Single Right click has recently been added to the API too, double right click does a zoom out. Currently I display UK grid and lat/long coords of the mousepointer in the browser's status bar. As this often requires the browser's (Firefox and MSIE7) security settings to be changed (to allow script access to the status bar) I am considering moving the data to a panel overlaid on the map.

Perhaps the most compelling reason for overlaying cave surveys and entrances on maps/imagery is to see how they relate to surface features.

It would be good to get some Geological maps on line with the caves too. I inquired of the BGS a year or so ago and got a No to a request for an on-line freebie of Mendip. However BGS are doing a new electronic series at present so it might be worth another try soon.
 

whitelackington

New member
bill chadwick said:
I agree Footleg. We should be talking up and exploring the possibilities rather than moaning.

"And the third, I didn't click on, but it was MartinR's Mendip site which seems very far advanced in terms of utilising some open source code." makes little sense to me - I don't believe I used any 'open source code' .

Scroll wheel zoom is supported by Google Maps - at first it had its problems and I opted to disable it - I'll give it another try. Single Right click has recently been added to the API too, double right click does a zoom out. Currently I display UK grid and lat/long coords of the mousepointer in the browser's status bar. As this often requires the browser's (Firefox and MSIE7) security settings to be changed (to allow script access to the status bar) I am considering moving the data to a panel overlaid on the map.

Perhaps the most compelling reason for overlaying cave surveys and entrances on maps/imagery is to see how they relate to surface features.

It would be good to get some Geological maps on line with the caves too. I inquired of the BGS a year or so ago and got a No to a request for an on-line freebie of Mendip. However BGS are doing a new electronic series at present so it might be worth another try soon.
Have you tried contacting Doctor Andrew Farrant?
 

graham

New member
whitelackington said:
bill chadwick said:
I agree Footleg. We should be talking up and exploring the possibilities rather than moaning.

"And the third, I didn't click on, but it was MartinR's Mendip site which seems very far advanced in terms of utilising some open source code." makes little sense to me - I don't believe I used any 'open source code' .

Scroll wheel zoom is supported by Google Maps - at first it had its problems and I opted to disable it - I'll give it another try. Single Right click has recently been added to the API too, double right click does a zoom out. Currently I display UK grid and lat/long coords of the mousepointer in the browser's status bar. As this often requires the browser's (Firefox and MSIE7) security settings to be changed (to allow script access to the status bar) I am considering moving the data to a panel overlaid on the map.

Perhaps the most compelling reason for overlaying cave surveys and entrances on maps/imagery is to see how they relate to surface features.

It would be good to get some Geological maps on line with the caves too. I inquired of the BGS a year or so ago and got a No to a request for an on-line freebie of Mendip. However BGS are doing a new electronic series at present so it might be worth another try soon.
Have you tried contacting Doctor Andrew Farrant?

He won't thank you for it!
 
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