Is it acceptable to modify a cave to make a potential rescue easier?

Well? Is it acceptable to modify a cave to make a potential rescue easier? (not an ACTUAL happening


  • Total voters
    66
  • Poll closed .

Hatstand

New member
BET NOW!!!  :D

A couple of notes that I dare say I will have to add to when more people point out obvious stuff I have forgotten

i) I don't include placing bolts for the purpose of this poll. I mean digging out tight bits etc.
ii) I don't intend to discuss modifying a cave during an actual rescue. I mean preconditioning the cave.

Party on

Hat
 

graham

New member
It was done to Langstroth Cave in the 1980s and IIRC to the Long Crawl in DYO as well.

Doesn't make it right, though.
 

biffa

New member
Think it one was done in the long crawl speculatively and not for an actual rescue.  With drill power available surely it is not an issue?
 

Les W

Active member
It is not normally considered acceptable to precondition a cave for rescue.

That said, apart from the ones mentioned above, I believe the odd corner or two were "eased" on a rescue practice in the Daren Cilau entrance series some years ago as well.
 

pete h

New member
To what degree would you modify?  A spinal injury would require more work than a broken ankle, so leave well alone until the shit hits the fan. (then duck)
 

damian

Active member
Les W said:
That said, apart from the ones mentioned above, I believe the odd corner or two were "eased" on a rescue practice in the Daren Cilau entrance series some years ago as well.

I thought certain locations were pinpointed for removal, but it never got further than that. Maybe I'm wrong.
 

Les W

Active member
You may well be right. I know I read about it in Descent at the time but my memory is a bit hazy.
 

graham

New member
Les W said:
You may well be right. I know I read about it in Descent at the time but my memory is a bit hazy.

http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php/topic,6176.msg84974/topicseen.html#msg84974
 

Stupot

Active member
Basically ......... No.

Leave them alone, if we start modifying cavea to prep for a potential rescue why not just bore a dirty great tunnel through for the ambulance.

Can you imagine it. "oh that's looks tight for a stretcher" best bang that off, "that may be awkward "let's bang that off.

I would say almost every cave worth visiting has a section which would prove difficult or impossible to negotiate during a rescue, but we can't go around moulding caves to our liking. As and when a rescue happens - Deal with in then, as cavers we all except (I would hope) the risks, and in many cases the places we visit are remote making a rescue an extrememly difficult undertaking.

The line in many cave descriptions 'A rescue from here would be virtually impossible' - A risk that we all take on a daily basis.

I know let's chisel steps up the side of Everest so the rescuers can walk the casualties down !!!!!

Stu.
 

whitelackington

New member
Your talking bollocks.
How would you like the possible death of a caver on your conscious if they died from a spinal injury.

Your say, not to premodify that very tight, awkward series of multiple angle squeezes
meant they could not be rescued.

Following on from the above scenario,
when a cave rescue had not been possible and the caver had died,
that very tight, awkward series of multiple angle squeezes
would then be modified.
 

Stupot

Active member
Hatstands original Poll - ii) I don't intend to discuss modifying a cave during an actual rescue. I mean preconditioning the cave.

Of course modify the cave during a rescue - That's common sense, I was talking about modifying the cave pre potential rescue.

And as for talking bollocks, are you not king of the SHIT HEAP?

So what you are saying is that if a person had died due to the fact that the stretcher could not be manoeuvred through a series of awkward squeezes then the said squeezes would be modified in the light of the event to help eliminate this issue if a similar incident were to happen again - Fair comment

And if the person died because the stretcher could not be manoeuvred through the awkward squeezes due to the nature of the cave then someone ultimately will have the death of the said person on their conscious

So where are you going to start then WL:

Wigmore ?
Dallimores ?
Sidcott Swallet - Could be tight
Swildons 7 ?
Eastwater ?
North Hill ?
PGS ?

And that's just a few Mendip ones of the top of my head.
 

Elaine

Active member
I quite agree Stupot. If you go to these isolated hard to reach places you (should) know that rescue would take a long time. It is the risk you take.

On the other hand, we have a small slot at the bottom of our dig that I think would be dangerous for someone to become stuck in - could someone come and bang it out for us please?
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
damian said:
Les W said:
That said, apart from the ones mentioned above, I believe the odd corner or two were "eased" on a rescue practice in the Daren Cilau entrance series some years ago as well.

I thought certain locations were pinpointed for removal, but it never got further than that. Maybe I'm wrong.

I noticed drill holes (presumably pre-emptively placed to remove obstructions, if required) at the choke leading from Valentine's Chamber towards the ladder in Cilau.
 

Hughie

Active member
cap 'n chris said:
damian said:
Les W said:
That said, apart from the ones mentioned above, I believe the odd corner or two were "eased" on a rescue practice in the Daren Cilau entrance series some years ago as well.

I thought certain locations were pinpointed for removal, but it never got further than that. Maybe I'm wrong.

I noticed drill holes (presumably pre-emptively placed to remove obstructions, if required) at the choke leading from Valentine's Chamber towards the ladder in Cilau.

I seem to recall hearing/reading that parts of Daren had been pre-drilled as a "just in case" measure.

Agree with Stupot - "basically.......No".

Your talking bollocks.

Mick - calling kettle black pot? Rearrange??  ;)

 

dunc

New member
Definitely a no...

There was a squeeze in Ingleborough Cave on the Wallows bypass that had been removed for what someone told me was a just in case measure. Couldn't believe it on my second visit when a short bit of fun had been taken away :(
 

ianball11

Active member
I wonder what cave rescuers think about it ?

I dont think difficult caves should be simplified, but I've not needed rescuing so far.

Ian B.
 

Peter Burgess

New member
Why, as cavers, are we so scared of risk? We see it all the time now, in the equipment we use and the attitudes we take on board. This subject, to put it bluntly, is specifically about modifying caves to reduce the risk of fatality through not being able to rescue someone. I would hope that anyone exploring any cave was aware of the basic risks presented to themselves by the mere fact of being there, and was also aware of their own capabilities and what degree of risk they are prepared to accept to enjoy their caving without being over-concerned for their safety. If you are not happy with the level of risk you are putting yourself at, perhaps you should not be there, and should only visit caves where the level of risk is acceptable to you. "A life without risk is no life at all". I'm not sure if anyone ever said that, but it sounds like a good quote. Use it as my epitaph if you like. I do know that almost exactly 40 years ago, someone was asked whether they were frightened of being assassinated. The pre-recorded answer, broadcast on the BBC on April 4th 1968, was along the lines of it was not the length of his life that was important to him, but its quality. That person was shot dead that very day.
Alan Jeffreys wrote recently in Descent 200 on how risk-averse we have all become. If you are designing an Underground station, or a new mine working, then of course every opportunity should be taken to reduce the risk of accidents and improve rescue facilities and so on. People don't visit such places to face dangers and challenges. But in caves, by and large, that is precisely what we are choosing to do for pleasure. Remove the risks, and you lose an element of the challenge that makes caving such an unusual pastime.
 
D

darkplaces

Guest
:clap: risk is good, its normal and to be encouraged! More importantly in the young.
 
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