Dr Bannister's Handbasin - missing anchor

adam

adam

Member
The P-hanger at the top of Dr Bannister's Handbasin in Upper Long Churn is currently missing. It must have come out in the last few weeks as it was there at the beginning of October.

It's possible to tie a hand line onto a large flake of rock a few metres back from the waterfall, but you need about twice the rope length.

I've reported it to the CNCC.
 
Badlad

Badlad

Administrator
Staff member
Interesting!  Has the whole anchor and resin come out just leaving an empty hole?  Maybe someone is in the process of replacing the anchor as even the so called 'failed' P anchors have taken considerable force to remove them from the hole.
 
adam

adam

Member
Yep, an empty hole remains. AliRoll, who I was with, said it looked like the anchor had been removed as opposed to just falling out. Hopefully someone is on with replacing it.
 
Simon Wilson

Simon Wilson

New member
The report of a missing anchor was passed on to me and I went for a look. I found a hole had been drilled in the right hand wall above the water chute. It was a 12mm diameter hole about 80mm deep. It was not a resin anchor hole. In the absence of any other explanation it looks like a random act of damage.

I also found an old hole in the left wall which looks as though it might have had a Spit that has been removed. There were also two rusty Spits. I removed the two Spits and filled all four holes with hybrid mortar coloured to match the rock colour which is relatively dark.

That leaves one DMM resin anchor which is loose. It will have been loose for years but as far as I am aware it has never been reported as being loose. But the present CNCC have no anchor records prior to 2014.

A decision on what to do about it has yet to be made. Because it is loose it should be removed. When it is removed should it be replaced? I tend towards the view that it should not be replaced because there is a very good natural belay close by and best practice should be to always use naturals when they are there.
 
T

topcat

Active member
Simon Wilson said:
A decision on what to do about it has yet to be made. Because it is loose it should be removed. When it is removed should it be replaced? I tend towards the view that it should not be replaced because there is a very good natural belay close by and best practice should be to always use naturals when they are there.
Click to expand...

True, but it is a common pull-through site and doing so from the natural isn't easy, or indeed possible without leaving tat behind.  Perhaps a dedicated pull-through anchor? 
 
glyders

glyders

Member
It's not far to walk back.
I have to admit to not being the most observant and have never noticed an anchor there. I've used the natural for a rope with novices, then packed it away and bridged down myself.

However, a neatly placed anchor would be better than rope grooves if people do continue to do pull-throughs.
 
Alex

Alex

Well-known member
I personally don't see a need for a bolt. Anybody leading novices down there should be able to free climb it, it's not a difficult free climb, so like Glyders their is no need to pull through. Just de-rig and climb down (or walk around). Really if you can't free climb it you should not be taking novices underground as you should improve your skill first before leading others.
 
andrewmcleod

andrewmcleod

Well-known member
Alex said:
I personally don't see a need for a bolt. Anybody leading novices down there should be able to free climb it
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In general you should be a lot more restrained in what you get up to when you are leading novices; you might be able to free-climb something but you probably shouldn't (I don't know how difficult this particular free-climb is). You are responsible for a group who could end up in a lot of trouble if you injure yourself; you should therefore not do stuff that you might happily do when not leading novices. Secondly it is a bad idea to show novices things that are a bit sketchy, as (hopefully unlike you) they are bad at making judgements at what is and what is not OK! They might see you launch yourself happily down a deep rift that is easy to bridge and has good feet, but then might (next time they go caving) launch themselves down a similar-seeming rift that turns out to bell out and be entirely lacking in footholds... You should of course always be demonstrating 'best practice' to novices but that is a slightly different thing to making judgements about what you can and can't safely(ish) free climb.
 
Ian P

Ian P

Administrator
Staff member
There are a number of very popular " group caves" in the Dales. At the top of that list by a HUGE margin is "The Churns".
A climb out of Dr Bannisters ( Using a well placed high bolt, to fix a rope to protect your group) and then heading over to Wilsons is a great end to a "Novice" trip.

I could happily manage with the naturals available. However I think this particular location would benefit from a well placed bolt, albeit mainly for convenience

Some bolt placement decisions should be made on a site by site basis, based on the unique use of some caves.

There are a couple of well placed bolts to allow a rope to be rigged over a deep pool in Old Ings cave. This is a pool that most "proper" cavers could easily step over, however there are a lot of "novice" cavers who have been grateful of the bolts.

If the replacement of a bolt at the top of Bannisters becomes a problem due to funding, I for one would be happy to contribute to the cost, however if the caving community decides a bolt is not required there, then I will be happy to work with what nature has left us !

Ian
 
T

topcat

Active member
There are loads of Dales SRT pitches that have been P bolted which are also optional free climbs. Many more have drop-ins.

Double standards?

I don't use Longchurns professionally but I would say that this location is crying out for a heavy duty resin pull through anchor.
 
andrewmcleod

andrewmcleod

Well-known member
I don't think a bolt should be put here. By which I mean one bolt.

Either don't bolt it at all, or put two in so you have proper redundancy... (this should, IMO, apply to everything)
 
Alex

Alex

Well-known member
Free climbing, however is a major part of caving, they have to learn sometime. Simply explain this is something you can do in time? As for injuring yourself, its unlikely as you would land in the deep water and don't these groups normally have a second competent person?

But anyway this is far from my experties, I rarely take novices, you can see why if you look above. When I do, its on a one to one basis and I prefer they have some decent climbing ability before I take them underground anyway.
 
Simon Beck

Simon Beck

Member
Having worked in the industry myself (not caving though) Andrewmcleod is absolutely right. Such risks should be avoided at all cost regardless of how easy/safe, straight forward it may be... 

But, I still don't think bolts should be placed here if good naturals exist. Especially on a feature which could hardly be classed as a true pitch. Leaders of groups should in my eyes just make best use of what is presented naturally and act accordingly.... 
 
M

MJenkinson

Member
Is this going to be the plan going forward then? Once an anchor in one of the caves comes loose / needs replacing, if suitable naturals exist (even if not ideal for the purpose) or it's really a free climb for a competent caver then the bolts won't get replaced?
 
T

topcat

Active member
Just a thought: same cave, same idea, different location..................the waterfall pitch has a P bolt, and spits, and is an easier down climb and has a by-pass too..................

Obviously there is a demand, and these are used.

My guess would be that if removed, they will reappear quite quickly: we might as well do a proper job of it.
 
Simon Wilson

Simon Wilson

New member
I think that on a forum being cryptic isn't always a good thing. Often people need to be able to clearly understand what you are saying.

This appears to be a rhetorical question.

MJenkinson said:
Is this going to be the plan going forward then? Once an anchor in one of the caves comes loose / needs replacing, if suitable naturals exist (even if not ideal for the purpose) or it's really a free climb for a competent caver then the bolts won't get replaced?
Click to expand...

I would prefer to know who you are addressing, what the point is and whether you are talking about resin anchors or bolts.


topcat said:
Just a thought: same cave, same idea, different location..................the waterfall pitch has a P bolt, and spits, and is an easier down climb and has a by-pass too..................

Obviously there is a demand, and these are used.

My guess would be that if removed, they will reappear quite quickly: we might as well do a proper job of it.
Click to expand...

Please excuse my ignorance but I don't know which pitch you call the waterfall pitch. Are you saying there is a pitch with Spits that are being used?
 
T

topcat

Active member
Simon Wilson said:
quote author=topcat link=topic=21132.msg271713#msg271713 date=1482402952]
Just a thought: same cave, same idea, different location..................the waterfall pitch has a P bolt, and spits, and is an easier down climb and has a by-pass too..................

Obviously there is a demand, and these are used.

My guess would be that if removed, they will reappear quite quickly: we might as well do a proper job of it.
Click to expand...

Please excuse my ignorance but I don't know which pitch you call the waterfall pitch. Are you saying there is a pitch with Spits that are being used?
[/quote]

Yes and no.............there are both spits and a P bolt at the top of the little waterfall by the entrance.  In a sense it's not really a pitch, but I have seen groups abseil this or use a hand line fixed to the spits going in both directions.  You can avoid the drop by a small dry ox bow BUT getting into it could be serious for a novice as is it right at the top of the drop.  The whole thing can be avoided using the alternative tunnel entrance anyway.

The point is, using a rope is common, it seems to add another dimension/challenge to a novice group and indeed I have plans to use it thus in the future.  A competent caver would just down climb it at most water levels, and it is a much easier down climb than Dr Bannister's....which is actually a bit tricky as I recall.
 
I

Inferus

New member
An anchor/rope is not needed for an average caver at Dr.B's, for novices it might be. Considering this is an extremely popular novice cave then it seems perfectly reasonable for an anchor to be in place.
However, if anchors started appearing at other easy obstacles in other less popular (non-novice) caves then my opinion would definitely be different..
 
Simon Wilson

Simon Wilson

New member
Inferus said:
An anchor/rope is not needed for an average caver at Dr.B's, for novices it might be. Considering this is an extremely popular novice cave then it seems perfectly reasonable for an anchor to be in place.
However, if anchors started appearing at other easy obstacles in other less popular (non-novice) caves then my opinion would definitely be different..
Click to expand...

Indeed, the whole of Long Churn, Wilson's and Borrins Moor Caves are a special case. They are considered to be a 'honey pot' which is used by leaders taking groups of absolute beginners in high numbers. And I think it is fair to say that many of the leaders are not experienced cavers.

However, the resin anchor there is a relatively new thing and for decades before that the natural belay was used by leaders using a rope.
 
T

topcat

Active member
No, before the resin they used the spits that you removed: I assume they were Duff, hence the upgrade to resin.
 
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