cap n chris
Well-known member
Should newcomers be taken on arduous "If you ain't `ard you shouldn't have bloody well come" epics to begin with or should they be gently taken by the hand and mollycoddled around something simple and undemanding?
Novices, lemmings, newcomers
- Thread starter cap n chris
- Start date
pisshead
New member
i'd say something simple - but not boring - generally simple is safer - we don't want any of them badly injuring themselves due to a lack of experience - also what's the point in putting them off on their first trip? don't want them to think they're not up to it when they would probably fine with a bit of practise - that could have been worded better - i apologise!
Brains
Well-known member
I think there is a middle way - tailor the trip to suit the abilities of the beginers. Keep it within their reach but stretch them a bit, but dont break any one as the local CRO will drink you bank account dry if they have to come out to you 
Remember, novice cavers who have a good time will buy you more beer, and they will come back to buy you more next time as well!
Remember, novice cavers who have a good time will buy you more beer, and they will come back to buy you more next time as well!
Johnny
New member
cap 'n chris said:
Do you know where that saying comes from?
I like to give em a trip to remember! By keeping a close eye on the person you are leading you can tell what they have got in them, if the trip is well within thier capabilities then you can always take a different route to provide something more challenging.
I do tend towards giving them a bit of a beasting but then the people that come caving with me expect that.
kay
Well-known member
Why should caving be about physical challenge?
If you take the view that caving can be about exploring a different world, rather than pushing yourself to your physical limits, then there's no reason at all to feel that you should "stretch them a bit" let alone "give them a bit of a beasting"
If you take the view that caving can be about exploring a different world, rather than pushing yourself to your physical limits, then there's no reason at all to feel that you should "stretch them a bit" let alone "give them a bit of a beasting"
cap n chris
Well-known member
Yes, thank you.
A
andymorgan
Guest
Obviously it depends on the person, a fit climber will probably manage more than some one overweight who hasn't done any exercise for a while. However the fit climber may get more claustrophobic... so you can't really tell beforehand.
I agree with Johnny, the different route idea is good one. When I took my younger brother on his first caving trip down Goatchurch, I was more knackered than him at the end :roll: and he wanted something more challenging. In hindsite I should have taken him somewhere else.
I agree with Johnny, the different route idea is good one. When I took my younger brother on his first caving trip down Goatchurch, I was more knackered than him at the end :roll: and he wanted something more challenging. In hindsite I should have taken him somewhere else.
paul
Moderator
andymorgan said:
Johnny's and your approach assumes that the trip is a one-off. Why not take it relatively easy on the first trip - and yes have alternative routes in the cave in mind, if there are any, depending on how things are going. If they end up wanting more, then there is always the next trip!
If the first trip for somebody ends up as an epic then you probably won't ever see them again. If they found it too easy, they'll definitely be back for more.
And if you are really evil - take them digging!!
That will sort them out!
Johnny
New member
kay said:
I don't think that it is a good idea to give the impression that caving is easy, it is a physical challenge, especially if you have never done it before.
Testing newcomers to the the club is a usefull exercize, it lets you and them know what they are capable of (and whether they will be able to help with the diggin :wink
cap n chris
Well-known member
The expression comes from the (in)famous 1963 expedition to the Gouffre Berger (then the deepest cave known); the "Ironman" caver, Ken Pearce, successfully dived the terminal sump 1, only to meet with another which turned him back; apparently, inside the cave entrance his plans for the expedition met with some vocalised concern by some of his sherpas but he so arranged things that, once in, there was no way for them to turn back, saying "If you aren't bloody hard, you shouldn't have bloody well come" or words to this effect (I imagine he'd arranged for someone on the surface to pull up ropes/ladder etc. after their descent). The expression is well known throughout UK caving, apparently (certainly I know of plenty of cavers who use it regularly), to such an extent that the expression "It's a bit Ken Pearce" is used to describe gnarly hardcore caving.
This is my understanding of the background but perhaps someone reading this thread has the definitive account of events. (It was a bit before my time, I'm afraid!).
This is my understanding of the background but perhaps someone reading this thread has the definitive account of events. (It was a bit before my time, I'm afraid!).
L
Limestone_Cowboy
Guest
I can see the point in both arguments and have tried both approaches with our freshers. I have so far found that the easy first cave with interesting bits approach is the best and leads to the most retained novices who are after all the comittee of years to come. The one time we tried the hardish cave first to see what they're made of approach we never saw most of them again, saying that I did take one climber on his first trip and we did Deaths Head/Big Meanie exchange. He loved it but has never ventured underground again.
Johnny
New member
cap 'n chris said:
I like that, I'm going to adopt it The account I have heard is very similar, maybe Mr Ken Pearce used the phrase regularly.
Bob Dearman and Bob Togood were in Giants, laying exhausted from carrying diving cylinders when a well aimed steel toecap hit them in the ribs and Ken Pearce jeered "If you weren't 'ard you shunt a come!"
Limestone_Cowboy said:
I guess that you are refering to a University club? In which case I would agree with you.
A club like the Eldon have different expectations of thier members.
A
andymorgan
Guest
cap 'n chris said:
I bet a few men's wives have said that before
M
Mike W
Guest
I think the correct expression is:- "If you aren't hard, you shouldn't have come". Ken was usually softly spoken, and I don't recall ever hearing him swear. There are many Pearce stories, some true, some not ( as is the way with legends ).
cap n chris
Well-known member
Thanks. The swearing included must be the Mendipian corruption of the original since everyone down here swears all the time; some people locally have been known only ever to use swearing with no other verbs or adjectives and it makes queuing for goods in the shops interesting when you overhear the request for fags etc. at the counter.
Also, the original phrase makes Andy Morgan's observation all the more apt.
Also, the original phrase makes Andy Morgan's observation all the more apt.
