Re: debate about "photos needed for 'The Complete Caving Manual'" and the commerical use of photographs

Tony_B

Member
Cave_Troll said:
If they're published in a book or advert then i get
1) fame(!)
2) people to look at and enjoy my pics (which is the main reason i take them)
3) a bit of dosh for charity if i'm lucky.

And the publishers' profits are increased...
 

Tony_B

Member
Peter Burgess said:
If a culture develops which says 'my photos will cost you ?x", then small-scale specialist books will not be so easy to produce.

I wrote a minority-interest book, and every picture in it was paid for because the publishers were a reputable and professional company who deal with writers and photographers every day and understand the value of their efforts to the success of the end result.

In the last few months I have sold caving pictures to two different book publishers and been paid for both. In neither case was the amount of money a king's ransom but the publishers understood that photographers should be paid for their work in the same way as other suppliers. This is especially the case with something as specialised as cave photos because they can't send Dave from accounts out into the high street, at lunchtime, with his digi compact, to take them.

Also in the last few months I sent the publishers of an in-flight magazine away with a flea in their ear after they expected me to provide hi-res cave images, free-of-charge, to illustrate a feature. I looked up their website and learnt that they are the UK's largest publisher of in-flight magazines and that their turnover is ?25m. Draw your own conclusions. 
 

fi

New member
Cave_Troll said:
If my pictures are not published anywhere, i'm not earning anything off them
If they're published in a book or advert then i get
1) fame(!)
2) people to look at and enjoy my pics (which is the main reason i take them)
3) a bit of dosh for charity if i'm lucky.

I don't think my photos are thus "worthless" and i've not lost anything

A general word of warning... your photos may already be earning money but you're just not aware of it.  A friend from another forum found a number of his sporting photo's turned into paintings and offered for sale on ebay (the subject matter made it obvious they were his photos - faces, locations etc were reproduced in precise detail).  He managed to contact one seller and has come to an agreement where he's acknowledged for the original art work and paid a 'commission'.  I do know of several other people who've had the same experience.  It's worth a wander around ebay to see if someone's making money from you...  
 

Tony_B

Member
fi said:

A general word of warning... your photos may already be earning money but you're just not aware of it.  A friend from another forum found a number of his sporting photo's turned into paintings and offered for sale on ebay (the subject matter made it obvious they were his photos - faces, locations etc were reproduced in precise detail).  

Stealing pics from Flickr and either publishing them or selling them on is not uncommon, either.
 

Chris J

Active member
Cave_Troll said:
If my pictures are not published anywhere, i'm not earning anything off them
If they're published in a book or advert then i get
1) fame(!)
2) people to look at and enjoy my pics (which is the main reason i take them)
3) a bit of dosh for charity if i'm lucky.

I don't think my photos are thus "worthless" and i've not lost anything

Its like everything - if you are selling something then you don't want anyone else to give it away and damage the market.

I sell software and so I'm not a fan of open source freebee stuff - but people still buy proper software because in theory it is more reliable, more sophisticated, supported by a company etc...

Maybe in the future there will be a limited market for software if lots of people make and give away free stuff... maybe the future of photography is the same? (i.e. no professional photographers as all the amateurs can create eqaully good shots?) Note the 'equally' good bit!
 

Tony_B

Member
Chris J said:
Maybe in the future there will be a limited market for software if lots of people make and give away free stuff... maybe the future of photography is the same? (i.e. no professional photographers as all the amateurs can create eqaully good shots?) Note the 'equally' good bit!

Most of us - myself included - take cave photographs on an amateur basis. But I made the point in my original reply to Andy's post that, even if you discount the time spent and the caving gear/petrol/travel costs involved in taking those pictures, you will still have spent a small fortune on camera gear, film, processing, batteries and so on if you have even a few pics worth looking at. So why, when a publisher is seeking to benefit from those images should you give them to him for nothing?
 

Slug

Member
mak said:
it would appear that Canon are trying to address the problem of digital image theft http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7251621.stm

Ooh Err, that's a bit scary, What happens when You ask someone else to take a picture of You...Is It now Theirs ?

Also, and I'm NOT having a dig at You Andy, but You are, by Your own admission , a person who makes their living as a "Professional Caver", would not this book help to raise Your profile, thus leading to some possible financial gain to Yourself ?, in much the same way as the publishers. Should not some form of payment (from the publishers) be made to the original Photographer as a way of acknowledgment for their efforts.

I smell a can of worms being opened here.
 

Peter Burgess

New member
And what about amateur self-publishers (individual or society)? Caving clubs who publish stuff? Illustrated caving journals? Should photographers ask the clubs for payment? The vast majority of sales of such material is for internal consumption for the betterment and education of cavers. Is this concern of something for nothing limited to professional publishing houses?

And why should we boil everything down to its monetary value? What a sad reflection on humanity.

And, no, I don't like seeing people profit unduly from other people's willingness to part with stuff for nothing, but it isn't all black and white (oops - unintentional pun). There are times when if it is blatantly obvious that a photo is going to increase sales or facilitate publication, but the photo is still offered freely, then that generosity should not be criticised but should be properly acknowledged.
 

Hughie

Active member
Peter Burgess said:
And why should we boil everything down to its monetary value? What a sad reflection on humanity.

Unfortunately it's what happens when you live in a "service" nation, rather than a "producing" nation. Sign of the times, I'm afraid.

I for one would be pleased to have any of my photos published - if I had any worthy of publication.  :(
 

Tony_B

Member
Peter Burgess said:
And what about amateur self-publishers (individual or society)? Caving clubs who publish stuff? Illustrated caving journals?

All of these examples are completely different kettles of fish to a publishing company like, in this case, Crowood.

The Complete Caving Manual is being commercially published, and it is obviously worth Crowood's while to produce it since they've gone to full-colour repro, so they're not doing it as a charitable act to the caving community. They will have worked out a budget for the publication of the book to include Andy's fees, repro, printing, binding, distribution and so on. That budget includes the princely sum of ?0.00 for photographs because they are confident that they can exploit the talents of many well-travelled and creative cave photographers who will be willing provide them with great pictures for nothing.  

Remember, kids...Just Say No.
 

Peter Burgess

New member
Tony_B said:
Peter Burgess said:
And what about amateur self-publishers (individual or society)? Caving clubs who publish stuff? Illustrated caving journals?

All of these examples are completely different kettles of fish to a publishing company like, in this case, Crowood.

The Complete Caving Manual is being commercially published, and it is obviously worth Crowood's while to produce it since they've gone to full-colour repro, so they're not doing it as a charitable act to the caving community. They will have worked out a budget for the publication of the book to include Andy's fees, repro, printing, binding, distribution and so on. That budget includes the princely sum of ?0.00 for photographs because they are confident that they can exploit the talents of many well-travelled and creative cave photographers who will be willing provide them with great pictures for nothing.  

Remember, kids...Just Say No.
We understand the argument, Tony. I am just (a little bit) concerned that this mindset would spread to areas where it would do more harm than good.

Publishing houses should say thank you with cash. Amateurs and individuals should say thank you with words.
 

Rob

Well-known member
Tony_B said:
In the last few months I have sold caving pictures to two different book publishers and been paid for both.  

And maybe that shows that you are in a different position to the rest of us. I'm not commenting on the quality of your shots at all, but for us with no-name and no pictures printed out there, how will publishers find our work? I admit that the web must be used for a lot of (or even the majority of) their research, and places like Flickr probably do wonders for the ammateur, but i reckon it is still much more useful to have a few photo credits in previous books.

A lot of books with caves in don't even care on the quality of our shots because they have no idea about caving or our photographic possiblities. If the top 100 cave photographers were all to join a pact agreeing that they will not give away free photos, then they'll just use crap ones. All they want to see small tight horrible holes with people covered in mud looking cold.

I see what your saying Tony, and i think i agree to the idea, but in practise i'll just loose out.

Anyways, i've got a job, and i take pictures for fun!
 

graham

New member
Peter Burgess said:
Publishing houses should say thank you with cash. Amateurs and individuals should say thank you with words.

And we do. (and with free copies too). There is a significant difference between Crowood and the Wessex Cave Club, for example. I am sure that had I had any suitable pictures then I would have let the Wexses use them for a fee of ?0.00. I would not do the same for a commercial production (and no, even if the WCC make a "profit" it's still not a commercial product in that sense.)
 

anfieldman

New member
In the past I have asked for permission, and used other peoples photo's to help me with my artwork. I was very grateful because at the time I could not go caving due to an injury. I could only thank these people with words and by accrediting their work if my drawings were displayed but now I can get underground again so I have no need to do this.
If anyone wanted to use my drawings for a book (as that is my medium) I would be grateful for payment but I would be very satisfied with the publicity my work would get.

Any chance of splitting this thread as it has gone a bit off topic from Andy's original question??

:-\
 

Peter Burgess

New member
anfieldman said:
Any chance of splitting this thread as it has gone a bit off topic from Andy's original question??

:-\

That's a good idea, especially as Andy might not be that enthralled by his request being hijacked. It is a useful debate though.
 
A

andymorgan

Guest
I doubt the publishers profits are increased by not paying for the photos, they probably have a set profit margin for each book. If photos are paid for, they probably just pass the cost on to the consumer.

Quite often the writer has to pay to publish things.
 

graham

New member
Disclaimer this is not a rant directed at Andy, as I believe that it is not him but his publishers who are at fault in this.

If the publishers refuse to allocate a budget for photographs and are placing the onus on this on the author then he has a number of options open to him:

Tell them he wants a larger slice of the income himself in order to cover his additional obligations in the deal.

Take the time to produce photos himself, at a cost in time and potentially lost revenue elsewhere.

Pay for them himself, thus drastically reducing his income from the project.

Get them for free from other cavers, thus protecting his income.

 
A

AMW

Guest
Photographs are an area that can be a problem, as co-editor (with Colin H) of the new CDG manual we have used photographs from a number of people England and further afield. We are also the publishers on behalf of the CDG. To produce the manual we have used a print agent to sort out the printing of the manual (i.e dealing with the printers) the print agent has also given advise on layout and format for a set price.

The authors of the photographers used in the manual have been give picture credits and we have acknowledge they hold the copyright, the CDG has a license from them for use in the manual no payment has been made.

As the CDG is the publisher and handles distribution Any profit from sales will go to the CDG and back into caving (diving).

Andrew.
 
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