Is this suicidal?

Alex

Well-known member
Is the following vid a bit suicidal or is it just me? Is this what caving is like in America? Yes it was a great pick off but why were they down there in that much water? Why were they not rigging with devis or something to stay out of the water and why the heck is the lady wearing a short sleve t-shirt. I doubt that water was warm!

http://www.beontherope.com/fr/2016/01/coincee-dans-une-cascade/

 

martinr

Active member
https://youtu.be/bo1QLWro4ak said:
Published on 17 Apr 2015

During a trip on 4/17/15 in warm spring flood waters we dropped some very wet pits! so wet that it flushed Megan's bun out of he helmet and into her rack! Luckily we had a second rope up top and I quickly wet down and performed a modified pickoff with the help of a small ledge. Afterwards she became entangled in the second rope just feet from the lip so I atempted to climb 70' back to her but the ropes were so badly twisted I had no choice but to change over and retreat. She managed to free her self and climb out. She then pulled the second rope up with the help of Heath and Clinton and I were able to climb out... Pretty scary stuff... These situations are why its important to practice your vertical skills. When I was forced to change over I completed it with my eyes closed because as you can see there was some water in my eyes...
 

Kenilworth

New member
This incident was briefly discussed by the NSS Safety & Techniques Committee to see if anything productive could be made of it. I don't recall any real conclusions, I think I suggested that rescuers should have a brimmed helmet or visor on hand when responding to a wet SRT incident.

Is this suicidal? It's very dangerous. Several less-experienced cavers have been killed in similar situations in the US. The only possible defense for this group is that they are very experienced and hopefully understood fully the risks of what they were doing. Some of the same cavers have done even more extreme wet pits, at least one of which is out there on Youtube. It may be that the thrill of rappelling a waterfall and their success in similar cases led them to ignore the absolute nature of what they were doing. I hope they are more cautious since this incident.

Is that what caving is like in America? In some ways. We do SRT like gorillas compared to UK cavers, whose vertical caving videos sometimes remind me of crocheting more than caving. I myself am entirely utilitarian on rope, do SRT to get down and up, and don't care one whit for elegance. I want to be safe though, and would never rig in the middle of a waterfall. Nor would most American cavers.
 

Ian Adams

Active member
It is very subjective.

I know we can see the video and I know we can see "what we can see" but it isn't enough to be judgemental per se.

.... I am aware of an incident around 12 years ago were a female was "caught" on an ascension in a waterfall and she became hypothermic and required rescue (which was difficult). She was luck in that there were people above and below her who were able to effect the recovery but it was a close call.

I am also aware of a personal experience of being underneath a 20 foot waterfall rift after being underground for the best part of a day and the "outside world" had (unknown to us) suffered a flash flood. The "rift" should have been no more than a light spattering of water but was, instead a gusher of water. So, do you risk it or wait it out knowing that rescue is coming later (they would wait it out anyway)?

We attempted it and made it out.

On another occasion, our club members were in a system not known to flood but caught by what appeared to be a flash flood (again, not knowing the outside world), the leader took the decision to "wait it out". Rescue was called and everyone (topside and underside) all waited and the cavers came out safely the following day. (an attempt to do so earlier would, in hindsight, have been fatal).

I think you have to make a judgement call based on the circumstances at the time. Although we got it right these times, I know we (cavers) don't always get it right.

Ian
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
Excellent post from Kenilworth; thank you. Suicidal is not suicide.

It is generally held as unwise to rig into water, some would say it's a death-trap to do so and there have been numerous examples which support that viewpoint. The only fatality in Swildon's Hole to date was a death from hypothermia as a result of a caver becoming hung up while ascending a pitch in a waterfall; it therefore seems surprising, to put it mildly, perhaps even cavalier, that rigging into water in the same cave is still seen as an acceptable standard practice - make of that what you will.
 

Bob Mehew

Well-known member
Has any one given any thought to the wear the rope might see against rock in such situations?  I accept that for much of the time in the video, the ropes were under tension so they would not be moving around except for the buffeting experienced by the individuals in the water.   

Long term exposures of rope left in cave as a hand line has resulted in one case where the free end of the rope was caught by the occasional rising stream level.  That occasional movement was sufficient to causes gross wear at a rub point further up the rope within one year. 

There was also one fatality where wear by the rope presumed rubbing on rock (the evidence was not sufficiently clear) was enough to cause the rope to break under the weight of the first caver to ascend after having only having seen 3 descents.
 

Alex

Well-known member
I would have to agree with capt Chriss on this one, you should not be rigging into water.

I also agree with Jacklepup when you do get caught out in that situation there is no right answer as to whether you should try and make it out or wait it out. I guess that largely depends on where you wait it out if it's sufficiently out of the water and the water won't flood that section. We got caught out in Ireby Fell once a while back and waited it out about 4 hours in the high level series before fighting our way out with still high but lowering water levels.
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
P.176-177, Marbach & Tourte, ACT:

Rigging Fundamentals:

Ergonomic/easy to use
Rig safely
Ensure integrity of the rope
Rigging should be beyond reproach
Should be simple, clear and straightforward
Beware unstable rock
Always rig outside of potential flood zones
Respect for the cave environment
 

Spike

New member
Cap'n Chris said:
P.176-177, Marbach & Tourte, ACT:

Rigging Fundamentals:

Ergonomic/easy to use
Rig safely
Ensure integrity of the rope
Rigging should be beyond reproach
Should be simple, clear and straightforward
Beware unstable rock
Always rig outside of potential flood zones
Respect for the cave environment

But it's not a flood zone, it's the normal path of the stream, so it must be OK right?
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
Of course, you are correct. In a flood all the water courses down a completely different part of the cave, so there's nothing to worry about.  ;)

Joking aside, M&T are most likely presuming that cavers are sufficiently intelligent* to not be rigging into water in normal, low conditions, but they are also pointing out that you need to consider where the water levels *might* be in the event of significant heavy weather and therefore to rig specifically to avoid even those parts of the pitch.

* Are they making a gross misjudgement?
 

al

Member
Very brave of them to post this useful film. It may seem obvious that rigging in the water isn't a good idea, but a film like this describes the problems in a better way than words ever could.

Judging from the clothes and some of the actions, the water on the film is not as cold as the stuff you'd encounter in UK caves, where the fast-onset immersion hypothermia would easily and quickly compromise your thoughts and actions.

And it's not simply a question of not rigging wet pitches either. I've been directly involved in two different shouts where a pitch has changed from a pleasant dry-ish abseil to a deafening maelstrom in the matter of hours. Sometimes it is predictable, but not always.
 

Brains

Well-known member
Only slightly off topic, but back in the day when wetsuits, ladders and hairy ropes were still popular, we used to wait for a wet day to have sporting trips down P8, Giants, Swildons or some such, with the ladder hung in the main flow and rigged from floor level. Entering P8 through a vortex with no air gap on a hand line was... interesting!
Times and practice have moved on tho'
 

Alex

Well-known member
P8, Giants and Swildons are all very short pitches, though. I guess with enough life liners they can simply just pull you up if you get into trouble on those short drops as not using SRT. I guess that's one advantage of ladders over pure string is that its very unlikely to get hung up, though the ladders in my experience can get tangled.
 

Fulk

Well-known member
I'm not sure what you mean, Alex, by
its very unlikely to get hung up,

Anyway, a lot can go wrong when climbing ladders. e.g. climbing on the 'wrong side', so as you near the top you get squashed against the wall; still, that's not as bad as getting half-way up a big pitch only to find that the lifeline somehow managed to thread itself through the ladder when it was being lowered down.
 

Amy

New member
I happen to know Clinton. Anyway, he posted a very good write up in Vertical Cavers on facebook, and I think it is a public note on his fb page? Anyway. There are many caves in TAG that your only choice is in the water. If the top isn't in the water, by midway down the entire place is soaked anyway, and so actually getting underneath it quick can often be the quickest way out of the worst of the flow (just something to keep in mind). In the end, It comes to experience and skill and a bit of crazy, but what cavers don't have a bit of crazy? I think some of the digs you do in unstable areas is crazy, but each their own. In the end, despite a potentially very bad situation, the *SKILLS* of the people there meant there were no incidents, no injury, no death. This cave in particular this is low/mid level of the amount of water that flows in, so it was not seen as a hazard initially. If you don't like being on rope in water, don't go to that cave (or many others in TAG) but seeing as how there are over 15,000 to choose from you'll find something to suit your style.
 
Interesting video and comments. It looks like good old fashioned 'fun'. But more importantly it also look dangerous. I wonder what a thoroughbred canyoner would make of it?

Amy said:
Anyway. There are many caves in TAG that your only choice is in the water.

From the first few seconds of the video, there appears to be a large black and dry (read spray) space beyond the waterfall. Would it not be relatively straight forward to traverse out and drop down here?

Amy said:
I think some of the digs you do in unstable areas is crazy, but each their own.

Agreed!
 

Amy

New member
Spray free at the top but typically not farther down, lota of our stuff where you do bother to bolt and rig put of water it doesnt help. Ive not been to this one to say. I do know Clinton is an expert rigger, bolt climber, and does lots of alpine style work. He is probably one of if not the best exploratiom caver in all of TAG. So if this cave is not rigged that way, it isnt for a reason. My point is more we can argue this or that for whatever thing we wish. It doesnt change what almost happened and it doesnt change the fact that the skill of the people involved prevented it from being a problem. I enjoy the video for the skillset i do see. And i do think itgoes to show what the cave rescue folk here say ks true - even if you dont want to be on a team at least take rescue training because you are the first there when it is someone in your group with a problem. A LOT of our callouts are prevented by promoting small party rescue. :)

Without risk there is no reward. You cant judge people for taking more risk than you would. Risk level varies based on multiple factors and is also weighted against skill and trust in your group. Clearly this example the risk was not too great as even with everything going wrong that could everyone out alive and unharmed.
 
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