Been talking with a few friends about maybe doing a few Draenen trips soon. Heard that there's a whole load of cracking trips to be done in there, especially for photo trips, but that navigation can be a bit tricky. Had a quick look on tinterweb in search for a survey of the place but all i can find is line surveys, which don't really help. I did find a huge set of detailed descriptions, which look like they could be pretty useful, but i'd much rather use a nicely drawn survey. I don't mind paying for one, but i just can't find out how or from where!

It seems strange the longest cave (and hence most difficult to navigate?) in Wales is the only one that's difficult to get hold of a survey. 

Pretty sure they are available from the Chelsea - contact the same person as you book your permit with. Definetly worth getting hold of one. While it's not as tricky as OFD to navigate it certainly can be fairly complex in places.

From their website - http://www.chelseaspelaeo.org.uk/contacts.htm
Cottage Warden and Survey sales
John Stevens

Worth staying at the CSS cottage too, it's lovely.

caving_fox said:

Pretty sure they are available from the Chelsea.

Click to expand...

The survey is not currently available. 

Long story, involving copyright issues etc...

Our mentor, Prof Tratman, had a saying which I believe may be apposite here:

If you didn't publish it, you didn't do it.

Click to expand...

Rob,

Have you downloaded the Grade 2 data from the OUCC website? Play around with this in Survex and, along with the line surveys you have mentioned, it should be more than adequate to help you find your way around.

To be perfectly honest, I would not recommend being dependent upon a published survey in order to navigate yourself around a cave as complex as Draenen. The best way to learn your way around all the major Welsh systems is, in my experience, to visit them without having the safety-net of a survey with you. Be sensible about it, don't try to cover too much in the course of a single trip and you should be fine. You will enjoy the experience a lot more than if you are stopping to consult the survey all the time and your navigational skills will improve as a result.

Having said that, I do agree it is a great shame that the Draenen survey is no longer available. It is very useful to have one at home to look at after the trip to see where you have (or have not) been and to help plan ahead for next time.

Finally, if you really are not happy going there without a survey just let me know where you are thinking of going and I'll see if I can scan the relevant section from my copy and send it on to you.

Cheers,
Nig

NigR said:

The best way to learn your way around all the major Welsh systems is, in my experience, to visit them without having the safety-net of a survey with you.

Click to expand...

Very commendable approach, most do-able if you live locally; however, I'd guess that if significant travel is involved then you'll be wanting a survey for route-finding.

You can do what I've done to the OFD survey I purchased...


It was bloody painstaking work but I now have a 20 page laminated guide with overlap like you'd find in a car atlas. The arrows tell you what page to refer to for the bit that they point towards. I reckon it's about 80% of the original survey size.

And no, it's mine, all mine, no one can borrow it ever!

(Well actually if SWCC wanted the pages so they could sell it in that form they'd be most welcome to them.)

Christian_Chourot said:

You can do what I've done to the OFD survey I purchased...

And no, it's mine, all mine, no one can borrow it ever!

(Well actually if SWCC wanted the pages so they could sell it in that form they'd be most welcome to them.)

Click to expand...

Excellent!  I'd buy a copy.

Actually, the Draenen survey already exists in this form - in fact some pages are duplicated so that you can see different levels.  As far as I'm aware only 3 hard copies are in existance (but may well make it into the public domain soon).  The original 3 sheet Grade 5 compilation is out of print.  I have a grade 5 SURVEX  3D data file and the LRUD data which I can put into Mike McCombe's Speleogen package to generate a survey containing the passage walls and even the surface terrain above.  The software will calculate the depth of any survey station below the surface (v. useful if you want your own private way in).

Brilliant. 

well we've got a commity meeting this weekend cristine if your serouse i know i'd buy one?

would people really wan them if we produced them?

hellie x

You're gonna be better off producing your own little personal navigational aids, such as Christian's neat example, otherwise you're into committees taking years, and most likely eventually deciding not to do anything on the grounds that there is no universal agreement on the colour scheme, plus club/corporation tax returns if you sell them.

They're selling the existing somewhat unportable surveys now so how would this be different?

It isn't; they'd still have to file a tax return, unless they are happy breaking the law. However, if they cost very little to produce (i.e. 10p/copy) they might prefer instead to reduce the fiddle factor attendant with a TR and simply give copies of surveys away to anyone who asks. Commercialism and caving, eh!

Chris WTF you on about? Lots of caving clubs produce and sell lots of publications, IIRC the Wexses recently did a nice little book on Swildons, and there have been no problems with that nice Mr Darling, or indeed his predecessor Mr Brown.

Duncan Price said:

The survey is not currently available.   

Long story, involving copyright issues etc...

Click to expand...

This forum has plenty of space!

Could somebody elaborate on 'copyright issues'? Is this copyright with the original source data gathered by surveying parties (presumably a large number of people have put in a lot of work to gather the data)? Or are we talking about copyright of the drawing up of this data? If the original survey data was put into the public domain by the people who gathered that data then at least this opens up the option to produce a public domain drawing of the survey. I can understand that it takes some time to get a survey together, but when this runs into decades they you have to question whether the survey effectively exists at all. Along the lines of what Graham said, if it is never published then it doesn't exist.

footleg said:

Could somebody elaborate on 'copyright issues'? Is this copyright with the original source data gathered by surveying parties (presumably a large number of people have put in a lot of work to gather the data)? Or are we talking about copyright of the drawing up of this data? If the original survey data was put into the public domain by the people who gathered that data then at least this opens up the option to produce a public domain drawing of the survey. I can understand that it takes some time to get a survey together, but when this runs into decades they you have to question whether the survey effectively exists at all.

Click to expand...

The survey (3 sheets - Draenen N, S and a central sheet showing the round trip) was published by Chelsea SS and is now out of print and out of date.

A large part of the survey data has been drawn up in sections which are held by the principle surveyors, the drawing up has slipped behind this when the project stalled and the surveyors did other things.

The main issue is between one individual and the Pwll Ddu Cave Management Committee and also involves a caving club - I can't even pretend that I fully understand the problems.  Copyright of the survey data is effectively owned by the peson who took the notes (this might only be a few people - even on a cave of Draenen's scale).  This is the source data from which anyone can draw up the survey.  Of course, a lot of people were involved in doing the actual surveying and there are a lot of people who are dissappointed that the survey is not available.  The chief protagonist is no longer a member of a caving club over the whole unhappy saga.  I'm not going to elaborate on this.  I hope, in time, the situation can be resolved.  Knowing the personalities involved, I wouldn't hold your breath.

The take-home message from this episode is basically to agree beforehand what is going to be done with the survey and distribution of data.

Alternatively, survey the cave on your own.

Duncan is right on two counts:

No-one really understands exactly why everyone fell out.

Lots of people who contributed time and effort to surveying trips are very pissed off that their work has not seen the light of day except in a remarkably limited fashion.

footleg said:

Duncan Price said:

The survey is not currently available.   

Long story, involving copyright issues etc...

Click to expand...

This forum has plenty of space!

Could somebody elaborate

Click to expand...

Footleg,

When we are both next in Matienzo I will give you the abridged story.

9pm to 4am in Bar German for two weeks should just about give us enough time.

Les W said:

9pm to 4am in Bar German for two weeks should just about give us enough time.

Click to expand...

And that'll only be the part Les knows ...

I reckon there is a good novel to be written of the story.  :greed:

Christian_Chourot said:

You can do what I've done to the OFD survey I purchased...


It was bloody painstaking work but I now have a 20 page laminated guide with overlap like you'd find in a car atlas. The arrows tell you what page to refer to for the bit that they point towards. I reckon it's about 80% of the original survey size.

And no, it's mine, all mine, no one can borrow it ever!

(Well actually if SWCC wanted the pages so they could sell it in that form they'd be most welcome to them.)

Click to expand...

I have done exactly the same as you a few years ago with Ogof Draenen survey, scanned it at a high resolution then cut it up into A4 size chucks that overlap, printed it, laminated it and then wire bound the whole thing together with the main survey of front cover and page numbers to various sections. It has now probably completed about 30 trips into Ogof Draenen and is still usable.