Way finding

kay

kay

Well-known member
I was reminded about this by the route finding topic - there have been various suggestions that men and women have different ways of finding their way about - and not just the facile "women can't read maps"/"men won't ask for directions" argument.

The particular one I was thinking of is that men generally seem to remember a route in its entirety and can describe it in terms of "turn left, then take the next right ..", whereas women go from landmark to landmark - at each landmark they know which direction to take, but don't know in advance which junction to take next until they arrive there and see it.

I fit the female pattern both above and below ground (but I can read maps). What about others?
 
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darkplaces

Guest
I think I am a bit of both. Generally when hammering around a place I go from junction to junction. However to get from A to B I will go though the whole route in my head first, I suspect remembering the most common part then the details when I'm going.
 
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Frog

Guest
I dont fit either.
I can read maps and navigate my way across open moorland in thick fog or blizzard.
I can get from one end of the country to the other quite easily on motorways or minor roads.
I always get where Im going.
Put me underground or underwater and I havent a bloody clue!
 
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emgee

Guest
Frog said:
I dont fit either.
I can read maps and navigate my way across open moorland in thick fog or blizzard.
I can get from one end of the country to the other quite easily on motorways or minor roads.
I always get where Im going.
Put me underground or underwater and I havent a bloody clue!
Click to expand...

I always carry a small compass with me underground (small as in designed to fit on a normal watch strap as well as the watch). On the moors I assume you use either a compass or gps what do you use underground?

I ask cos I;m amazed how few others seem to carry such a small bit of kit. makes working out which way to turn so much easier.
 
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susie

New member
emgee said:
I always carry a small compass with me underground (small as in designed to fit on a normal watch strap as well as the watch). On the moors I assume you use either a compass or gps what do you use underground?

I ask cos I;m amazed how few others seem to carry such a small bit of kit. makes working out which way to turn so much easier.
Click to expand...
Well I don't carry a compass underground, because I am not convinced by their efficacy in underground navigation. In general, one uses a compass on the surface to bounce from one feature to another, often using it to follow a dead reckoning. Underground, there is a lot of rock preventing one from proceeding on a dead reckoning, and the space in the rock will take you to the next landmark anyway. If one has a survey and one comes to a junction, it's easier enough to go left or right, rather than ESE or WNW. In 30 years of caving, I have never used a compass underground for anything other than surveying.
 
paul

paul

Moderator
susie said:
emgee said:
I always carry a small compass with me underground (small as in designed to fit on a normal watch strap as well as the watch). On the moors I assume you use either a compass or gps what do you use underground?

I ask cos I;m amazed how few others seem to carry such a small bit of kit. makes working out which way to turn so much easier.
Click to expand...
Well I don't carry a compass underground, because I am not convinced by their efficacy in underground navigation. In general, one uses a compass on the surface to bounce from one feature to another, often using it to follow a dead reckoning. Underground, there is a lot of rock preventing one from proceeding on a dead reckoning, and the space in the rock will take you to the next landmark anyway. If one has a survey and one comes to a junction, it's easier enough to go left or right, rather than ESE or WNW. In 30 years of caving, I have never used a compass underground for anything other than surveying.
Click to expand...

I would say that the majority would agree with Susie (I do). Another problem is underground is that you often have to navigate in 3 dimensions.
 
Johnny

Johnny

New member
I think that a compass is a usefull tool for getting the general direction or trend of a piece of cave and they are invaluable for cave diving.
I never carry one when caving because I would just break it.
I tend to try and understand how the passage, that I am following, relates to the rest of the cave and its formation.

e.g. I am in this bedding which is higher than that bedding, the passage is dry but was, more than likely formed in that direction and I am travelling down-dip etc.

I dont know whether this approach is typically male or female but I know it helps when no survey exists.
 
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emgee

Guest
susie said:
emgee said:
I always carry a small compass with me underground (small as in designed to fit on a normal watch strap as well as the watch). On the moors I assume you use either a compass or gps what do you use underground?

I ask cos I;m amazed how few others seem to carry such a small bit of kit. makes working out which way to turn so much easier.
Click to expand...
Well I don't carry a compass underground, because I am not convinced by their efficacy in underground navigation. In general, one uses a compass on the surface to bounce from one feature to another, often using it to follow a dead reckoning. Underground, there is a lot of rock preventing one from proceeding on a dead reckoning, and the space in the rock will take you to the next landmark anyway. If one has a survey and one comes to a junction, it's easier enough to go left or right, rather than ESE or WNW. In 30 years of caving, I have never used a compass underground for anything other than surveying.
Click to expand...

Perhaps it's just me that has a survey and goes er where am I lets see well I thought I was here but that passage is going the wrong way so I must be there.

Someone else mentioned getting broken the one I use is rubber and I can't imagine anything that would break it without also breaking the wearer if it broke it was only a couple of quid.
 
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darkplaces

Guest
I use a small button compas I have attached to my caving suit. Its handy for general directions. I can see a compass more usefull in mines rather then caves. You can generally see the direction of water flow in a cave so if you want to get out you generally go up stream (if you went in at the top!) in a mine you could be in a maze and have no idea which is in/out.
 
Stu

Stu

Active member
Compasses are useful for setting a survey. It's been useful a couple of times in the past and it's next to nothing to carry on a watch strap.
 
S

susie

New member
c**tplaces said:
I use a small button compas I have attached to my caving suit. Its handy for general directions. I can see a compass more usefull in mines rather then caves.
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I can see that - I haven't been in many mines, but parts of those that I have been in were pretty featureless and lacking the visual clues that I'm used to - I've got quite disoriented on occasion. I have never had the same problem in a cave, however.
 
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emgee

Guest
susie said:
c**tplaces said:
I use a small button compas I have attached to my caving suit. Its handy for general directions. I can see a compass more usefull in mines rather then caves.
Click to expand...
I can see that - I haven't been in many mines, but parts of those that I have been in were pretty featureless and lacking the visual clues that I'm used to - I've got quite disoriented on occasion. I have never had the same problem in a cave, however.
Click to expand...

Interesting I find the opposite mines tend to be laid out according to some sort of pattern there's some sort of human logic in where an adit goes and they frequently have discreet levels with names or numbers and have straight lines. Cave passage follows "natural history" and can curve subtly without you noticing or go under something when you don't expect it.

Having said that I've just been sent a copy of the survey of the maze in Wapping mine and it looks like a mine where a compass will come in handy.
 
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Frog

Guest
emgee said:
Frog said:
I dont fit either.
I can read maps and navigate my way across open moorland in thick fog or blizzard.
I can get from one end of the country to the other quite easily on motorways or minor roads.
I always get where Im going.
Put me underground or underwater and I havent a bloody clue!
Click to expand...

I always carry a small compass with me underground (small as in designed to fit on a normal watch strap as well as the watch). On the moors I assume you use either a compass or gps what do you use underground?

I ask cos I;m amazed how few others seem to carry such a small bit of kit. makes working out which way to turn so much easier.
Click to expand...

Above ground I use a compass and map. I dont own a GPS as Ive never needed one.
Underwater I tend to get distracted and just go off in different directions looking at stuff and then have no clue as to where I am. Not a problem though as I always carry a DSMB so I can just fire it off and the skipper knows where I am. If I am instructed to return up the shotline then I either lay a line or dont stray too far.
Cave diving is fine as I lay a line so can always find my way back out.
General caving I again tend to get distracted. So far I cave with people who know where they are going so Im quite safe. I think if I solo caved I would get distracted and wander off in different directions down different passages and not have a clue.
I do this above ground aswell but armed with a map I can identify features and find where I am.
I will stick to being a 'safe' caver for now till I learn the art of taking notice of where I am!
 
paul

paul

Moderator
Frog said:
Cave diving is fine as I lay a line so can always find my way back out.
General caving I again tend to get distracted. So far I cave with people who know where they are going so Im quite safe. I think if I solo caved I would get distracted and wander off in different directions down different passages and not have a clue.
[snip]
I will stick to being a 'safe' caver for now till I learn the art of taking notice of where I am!
Click to expand...

If you always leave the route finding to those who know the cave, what happens if there is an accident and its up to you to go and get help...

Not a personal criticism but an observation. Its surprising how many people I have been caving with who never try and learn the route they are taking.

Mind you - it has its funny moments. Like the time we convinced somebody in OFD we were lost. After they sat down and decided to give up and die - we pointed out thet the gate to Top Entrance was about 50 feet away up the slope he was sitting on... :twisted:
 
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Frog

Guest
[quote="paul
If you always leave the route finding to those who know the cave, what happens if there is an accident and its up to you to go and get help...
[/quote]

I think if someone needed my help I would of course do my best. If they were concious then I could ask them for some guidance but if they werent then I would just have to try my best to get out.
I do try to make an effort to remember where Ive been as I dont just want to trundle round after other people. Thats not what its about for me but I am still a fairly new caver so Ive got a lot to learn.
Ive learnt SRT and rigging and tying knots so I guess route finding is next on the list.
 
paul

paul

Moderator
Frog said:
paul said:
If you always leave the route finding to those who know the cave, what happens if there is an accident and its up to you to go and get help...
Click to expand...

I think if someone needed my help I would of course do my best. If they were concious then I could ask them for some guidance but if they werent then I would just have to try my best to get out.
I do try to make an effort to remember where Ive been as I dont just want to trundle round after other people. Thats not what its about for me but I am still a fairly new caver so Ive got a lot to learn.
Ive learnt SRT and rigging and tying knots so I guess route finding is next on the list.
Click to expand...

I think the best way to learn is to go to a reasonably complicated cave you've been to before but which you think you may not be able to navigate the way.

Accompanied by others more familiar with the route(s), stay at the front and find your way in, then also stay at the front and lead the way out. If you take a wrong turn hopefully the other(s) will let you know before too long.

I have found in the past that in a complicated system where there has been a length of time between visits, people tend to recognise a route and follow it only to then realise that the reason they remember it so clearly was that they followed it last time and it was the wrong way!
 
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darkplaces

Guest
Some people dont want to navigate, sometimes the consistant offenders need to be pushed to the front and with much encouragment and motivation told dont worry, give it a go, the 'navigator' takes a back seat. The achivment the person feels when they get it right is worth the punishment. Its a huge confidence boost. Its worth visiting places for navigation practice alone.
 
Rachel

Rachel

Active member
Funny, I seem to do the opposite to most people's approach. I like to amble along at the back, so I don't have the pressure of feeling that I'm holding people up, and that gives me the chance to look around and remember the route more easily. I find that looking over my shoulder frequently is the most useful as cave pasages often look very different when you go down the in the opposite direction. I'm usually not bothered where I go on the way in so long as it makes an interesting trip, but I put a lot of importance on being able to find my way out again!
 
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Fred

Member
Going back to using a compass underground - I always carry one especially in the dales as the NC guides often refer to the compass points when describing routes and I don't know about anyone else but after a couple of pitches and a few 100m of horizontal passage I certainly don't know which way is East anymore.
 
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