BCA resources directed towards 'commercial caving' (spin off from CNCC thread)

Andy Sparrow

Active member
Taken from the current CNCC thread:

exsumper said:
The point I'm making is that the BCA appears to spend a disproportionate amount of its time and resources promoting the interests of the commercial sector rather than that of ordinary cavers. 

On Mendip dozens of uneccessary bolts (paid for by the BCA)  have been installed on little used and pointless esoteric SRT routes, the installation of which appear to be largely for the convenience and entertainment of commercial operators and their clients.

The point I'm making is that the BCA appears to spend a disproportionate amount of its time and resources promoting the interests of the commercial sector rather than that of ordinary cavers. 


Examples, please....

On Mendip dozens of uneccessary bolts (paid for by the BCA)  have been installed on little used and pointless esoteric SRT routes, the installation of which appear to be largely for the convenience and entertainment of commercial operators and their clients.

Examples, please....

 

Burt

New member
I'd bet that more people are introduced to caving as a hobby via a commercial experience of some sort, than are introduced by other means. I have no stats to prove this, but just by virtue of commercial novice trips vs private novice trips, I'd bet this is true.

As for dozens of unecessary bolts...."for the convenience of commercial operators"... the vast majority of commercial trips are level 1 which would not involve bolts or pitches.
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
I have no doubt whatsoever that you are spot-on Burt with your bet that more people are introduced (now, and historically) to caving as a hobby via a professionally led/instructed experience, than are introduced by other means.

In another relatively recent thread someone asked whether children should be taken caving - perhaps a better question would be "Should UK caving have a future or should it just become extinct?". If you've got under 18s going caving in a C21st litigious world then presumably you'll need provably competent people to take them. Hence professional certification.

It would be helpful to get a fix on the demographic for UK caving and its various bodies.
 

Peter Burgess

New member
As the first non-commercial caver to contribute to this topic, my observations is that most of the membership applications to my club from raw beginners never mention any commercial introduction. Most are from people looking to move on from other interests such as diving or climbing, or want to join because a friend of theirs is already a member.
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
Peter Burgess said:
... most of the membership applications to my club from raw beginners never mention any commercial introduction.

Is it a question on the application form?

[For the record I got into caving after having been professionally led in my youth].
 

Peter Burgess

New member
Not directly, however the four most pertinent "boxes" are:

FOUND WCMS VIA:
REASON TO JOIN WCMS:
OTHER CLUBS:
EXPERIENCE:

... which give an applicant scope to point out anything they consider relevant. Occasionally one or two might mention a "course" but it's rare.
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
The most common answer I get when I ask people "Why caving?" when I meet them is that they "watched Descent".
 

Peter Burgess

New member
I am sure quite a few might say "I found this hole, and felt an urge to find out what was down there" or something along those lines.
 

bat

Member
Iv a suspicion that the Scouts might be a one of the ways that a lot of people start caving however I don't know where they fit in the commercial, non-commercial professional, non-professionally groups. Certainly lots of under 18s start caving in the Scouts

Most however are happy to use the bolts
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
They'd fall under the instructed caving heading, I reckon: hence the totally misleading and skewed categorisation of "commercial caving". "Commercialism" is a highly negativised emotive term - it's used by people who have a poisoned agenda, imo.
 

Andy Sparrow

Active member
bat said:
Iv a suspicion that the Scouts might be a one of the ways that a lot of people start caving however I don?t know where they fit in the commercial, non-commercial professional, non-professionally groups. Certainly lots of under 18s start caving in the Scouts

Some scout groups use scout instructors, and some use commercial providers.  It's unlikely any club applicant will say that their experience was commercial.  They might say scouts, or with the school, or at a centre.  The provider may have been purely commercial, a charitable body, or a subsidised local authority centre.  This is why it's more meaningful to talk in terms of instructed caving, rather than commercial caving.  Commercial caving is only an element in the broad spectrum of instructed caving.
 

Peter Burgess

New member
Instructed caving can be done for altruistic and non-altruistic reasons. There is quite a difference between the two, even if the outcome might be broadly the same.
 
I've got zero agenda about commercial caving - I cave with loads of people involved in Commercial Caving as instructors...in fact without them i'd hardly have anyone to go caving with!

BUT, i'm pretty sure none of our group got into caving having first tried it with a commercial instructor.

I think lots of people get a first taste of Caving with a Commercial guided trip...but from our (admittedly small) sample that doesn't necessarily translate into active cavers...

Maybe that'll change in the future if more novices come into the sport that way...

But my experience is most of the active cavers I know got into it via the club route...via Uni clubs or the "gave it a go myself" route
 

Jopo

Active member
Surely most cavers come via university clubs. I would be astounded if this contention is true:

Cap'n Chris said:
I have no doubt whatsoever that you are spot-on Burt with your bet that more people are introduced (now, and historically) to caving as a hobby via a professionally led/instructed experience, than are introduced by other means.

Perhaps a more pertinent question is how many of those who are taken caving by a paid instructor actually ever go again.

5, 10, 15, ?%.
 

Pete K

Well-known member
The BCA is not just one unit of people that has to choose what topic to discuss at a particular meeting. There are committees charged with operating the award schemes, club training, equipment, expeditions etc... Each committee reports up the chain to BCA exec. The only individual with a direct mandate to represent the 'commercial' or better said - professional caving group is the training officer. Others on the exec may be qualified cavers but their role on the exec is concerned with other matters. Therefore, if we consider the training officer is the only representative professional caver in the whole exec I'd say we were in fact well underrepresented in terms of numbers.
A disproportionate amount of time is devoted to professional caving by the committees responsible for it!

I'm not aware of a single bolt placed in the Peak for a commercial reason that does not get used by any and all cavers. Besides, our registration fees contribute towards the bolt fund so are we not entitled to a bolt or 2?
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
Jopo said:
Surely most cavers come via university clubs. I would be astounded if this contention is true:

Cap'n Chris said:
I have no doubt whatsoever that you are spot-on Burt with your bet that more people are introduced (now, and historically) to caving as a hobby via a professionally led/instructed experience, than are introduced by other means.

You may be correct that "most cavers come via university clubs".

Equally Burt may ALSO be correct that "more people are introduced to caving as a hobby via a commercial experience of some sort, than are introduced by other means".

The two statements are not opposed to each other, they can both be true.
 

TheBitterEnd

Well-known member
Jopo said:
Surely most cavers come via university clubs. I would be astounded if this contention is true:

I really don't think so. I know plenty of cavers who never went to university. It may be around 50/50%
 

graham

New member
Peter Burgess said:
BUT - none of this relates to why the topic was set up.........

It does, largely as many of the commercial (I suspect they'd prefer 'professional' as it has better connotations) contributors to the thread thus far have claimed that they are responsible for the majority of introductees to caving as a long-term pursuit and they thus hold the key to the future of caving as an activity. We can all give anecdotal evidence to to support or refute this. My own observations would be that most current committed cavers came via the student club route; they may or may not have had an earlier school trip, but that seems not have been a factor. I could also point out that few, if any, of the people that I have regularly caved with came via their route - but then as virtually of this group are over 50 they may not be representative  ;)

What I dislike about some of our commercial brethren is their sense of entitlement. As someone who has devoted a fair amount of time to cave conservation I get, shall we say, peeved, when I hear talk about our caves as resources to be exploited rather than assets to be preserved and I get even more peeved when the BCA virtually instructs* us to attempt to renegotiate long-standing access agreements to let them in. Fortunately the one agreement which causes most hassle in this regard not only has a cast-iron landowner but is also non-negotiable for the next century.

In this respect, I find it fascinating that the thread which sprouted this one indicates a disagreement between BCA and CNCC as the CNCC move towards facilitating commercial access to towards having commercial members is so similar to the BCA moves to facilitate commercial access. It is this 'slippery slope' which so concerns the likes of ex-sumper who doesn't want to find that he suddenly has to pay a significant fee to go digging. I think he'd be even more miffed if such changes also led to his digging team needing a 'qualified' leader.

*only a slight exaggeration.
 

Bottlebank

New member
I'm not aware of a single bolt placed in the Peak for a commercial reason that does not get used by any and all cavers. Besides, our registration fees contribute towards the bolt fund so are we not entitled to a bolt or 2?

If I remember rightly in Giants there are a number before you get to Garlands, if you know where to look. Whether they were placed under the bolting scheme or not I don't know, but they were put in for commercial caving.

So far as I know they are still there.

And for the record I don't care how people come into caving, no one knows, the likely answer is it's a combination of routes including commercial caving at various levels. So what, as long as they do keep coming.
 
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