Hi,

I know there have been other posts on this subject but my computer is messing round and i cant open them.
I would love to eventually have a go at cave diving but i have been told that you need to be a qualified openwater diver first. A friend of the family who i first caved with used to do loads of cave diving, but has retired now, he said several people he used to dive with were caver's who were taught to cave dive by a cave diver and others went through the Padi-BSAC route. Is it possible to be taught by a cave diver or is that not the done thing?

i understand that if i am to go for the open water diver first then the BSAC is the best as it is more similar to UK cave diving, rather than Padi whilst on holiday in Florida.

Any comments would be welcome

P.S- I hope when i say BSAC it is the right thing

Dave

I know Martyn Farr runs a beginners course - you could do worse than contact him for advice at Farrworld (I think).

Doing a PADI OW course or a BSAC Ocean Diver course is not a bad thing to do, I have done both and would recommend the BSAC training over the PADI.

They will not teach you to cave dive but will give you an insight in to scuba diving basics which will be required in an over head environment such as mask clearing, buoyancy and equipment familiarization.

People will say that you don't have to be a diver to become a cave diver, fair enough, but if you are comfortable using scuba equipment in an OW environment then surely stepping into a sump with this training will make it slightly easier than starting from the very basics.

Just my personal opinion from someone who has taken this route, my first cave dive was nerve wracking enough but with some basic OW training under my belt it helped no end.

Stu.

Johnny of this forum was not an open water diver - before taking up cave diving.

He's been taken under the wing of a very competant and experienced CGD member and is progressing very well. He's certainly putting in the hours.
I think the CGD fully endorse the Apprentice / Mentor approach.

He's got a lot of cave dives under his weight belt now, but interstingly - had only just passed his PADI on saturday. I think prehaps to become a fully qualified member of the CGD - they expect you to have a PADI Open Water certificate. But I could be wrong on that.

The best attidtue to have seems to be one of utter dedication to the discipline, under the wing of an experienced and 'steady' CGD member.

It was my understanding that the CDG would much rather take a caver and teach him to dive than to take a diver and try and teach him caving.
Open water divers learn a lot of "bad" habits which when cave diving would perhaps cause problems.

I could be wrong though.

Personally i feel there is no definitive answer to this debate as it' all depends on the individual in question.

Stu.

Les - I suspect that what you posted above is "CDG ethos with a Mendip bias".  Also (Sam) just to set the record straight - no you don't need a PADI certificate to join the CDG.

BUT - anyone interested in cave diving is well advised to aim for the highest possible standards in their general diving skills.  It certainly helps to have a lot of varied caving experience but it is not essential.  I've taken skilled open water diving friends on some quite long cave dives, after overseeing their preparations and satisfying myself that they have the right attitude - and they have done very well. 

There is some good information in the postings above; basically anyone who approaches the discipline with a huge amount of respect, aiming to progress at a realistic pace and intelligently filtering what can sometimes seem like conflicting advice, will probably be OK.  It is possible for non caving open water divers to go UK cave diving in special circumstances but if they don't learn to cave as well they will always be limited in the scope of what they can achieve.  Similarly, expert cavers who shun open water skills will at best limit themselves to a style of cave diving which isn't particularly pleasant and at worst have an accident (due to not having the experience to deal with relatively simple problems which are easy to resolve with the right skills).

We are all learning, all the time.

Agreed. I dive in open water occasionally just to practice diving skills, especially buoyancy. It's also better, for example, to gain experience of deep diving in a more relaxed situation. Similarly, trying out a new equipment configuration is often best done in open water.

Mark

I think what Stu says is right. And I used to be fairly strongly against the idea of Open Water divers getting into cave diving. How ideas change.

For me one of the most important things is the reason for wanting to start cave diving. With the "right"* reasons you are more likely to have the right mental approach. Like John said, we are all learning all the time.

I did my first cave dives in 1987(ish) and eventually got my PADI ticket in 1997. :

(* discuss.....)

Cheers,

Marcus

Er, confession time, I did my first cave dive in 1976 - and I've yet to get round to obtaining a PADI ticket . . . . . .    One of these days I really must learn to dive properly!

Actually, I think I need to apologise to Les as what I wrote above might be taken wrongly.  Maybe I should have typed "CDG ethos with a Mendip perspective" (rather than "bias").

The CDG mentoring system is very good and now accomodates aspirant cave divers from a wider spectrum of backgrounds than formerly - a move in the right direction in my opinion.

Anyway, anyone who fancies a go - you take care.

Folks,

You are all to be congratulated on the balanced views presented on this thread.

I opened it thinking to see dead bodies left and right.

Well done.

Ciao,
Peter

The CDG takes divers from both a caving and diving background, those who cave can be taught to dive by the CDG (section dependent) or advised to take an open water course. Those from a diving background are expected to go caving, a caving log book is required as well as a cave diving one when a member asks the section for QD status after passing the Q test.

Andrew.

Thanks for your replies guys,

I think the best way for me to approach this is to butter up a CD or two by maybe offering Sherpa Dave to any trips they want a mule for, and learning from what i see-kitting up inside+outside the cave, maybe getting advice in certain areas. Then before i attempt to get into the cavediving side do atleast some form of diving to gain experiance and knowledge, i understank kit differs between the 2 different types but any form of experiance is better than none?

Comments?

Thanks again,

Dave

You will find a huge number of the CDG membership have made there way into cave diving (and the CDG) by the gear donkey route. Most clubs have a few cave divers around get to know them, buying beer is always a good way  . The training once you start takes a while (up to two years) as I am sure you can work out there is a very good reason for this. You will also find it may take time to get involved this is not necessarily stand offish (ness) more a case of making sure the resources of the CDG are not wasted. For some one to mentor you it is a big commitment and one that is best not wasted.

Andrew.

Thanks guys, i appreciate the comments.

Looks like i had better start buying beer and being very nice to cave divers 

Dave

Dave said:

Thanks guys, i appreciate the comments.

Looks like i had better start buying beer and being very nice to cave divers 

Dave

Click to expand...

Why, do you need them for a going lead 

Dave said:

Thanks guys, i appreciate the comments.

Looks like i had better start buying beer and being very nice to cave divers 

Dave

Click to expand...

I wonder if you are going to meet a lot of 'cave divers' soon in pubs.

"Hi, Dave. You don't know me, but I'm a cave diver. Mine's a Butcombe by the way."

You might also think about why you want to get into cave diving. Is it the lure of exploration of new cave, visiting passage already explored but only open to divers or is it the excitement of diving in an overhead environment?

The reason I ask is that if it is the latter, you may find some cave diving abroad more appealing. There is a world of difference between clear water, floating amongst stalactites in the Yucatan and squeezing through passage in zero vis in the UK. In the UK, I believe cave diving is more a means to find new dry passage than an enjoyable past time in itself. Yucatan on the other hand you have stunning systems entirely submerged.

You will find that many of the techniques and equipment configurations vary depending on the nature of the passage. In the Yucatan you'll find the majority of dives being conducted using double back mounted tanks manifolded with an isolater valve. In the UK side mounts are the norm.

I have a limited amount of experience with cave diving in both environments (though I wouldn't profess to be an expert in the field). I started diving around 17 years ago in the open water - first with a padi try dive course and then back in England as a BSAC club member. I started caving about 11 years ago. I had a brief dabble with diving short sumps (50 m or so) using twin side mounted pony tanks and then took part in a cave diving course offered by the NSS CDS (US national speleaological society cave diving section) in the Yucatan. This course was aimed at teaching skills relevant to diving large passages in clear water using a buddy system with back mounted tanks and required (I think) that you were at least PADI advanced open water with 150 dives under your belt. Whilst I've heard plenty of people dismiss these courses as commercialisation of a risky pursuit, the reality is that they are professionally run and teach valuable skills that will improve your open water diving as well. The course included line laying, multiple line navigation, blind cave exits through constricted passage whilst air sharing (using a long hose regulator), relocation of the line in zero vis, etc. I would never assume this qualified me for cave diving in the UK as the skills are quite different but as a skill set that would open up guided tours of stunning cave systems with more experienced divers I found it well worth doing. If I planned to get into diving in this country I would contact the CDG - no question about it.

Regarding BSAC and PADI, years ago PADI had a reputation held by divers in this country as an organisation that valued commercial success over proper training. Jokes used to run about the acronym standing for "put another dollar in" or "pay and dive instantly", or for the even more cynical "pay and die instantly". PADI courses were run over a couple of weekends whereas the BSAC equivalent tended to take longer, being run through club training nights generally held once a week. The reality nowadays is that there isn't a great deal to call between the courses offered. BSAC have in many respects tried to emulate PADI to improve their own commercial success.

Of far more importance is the relevance of your experience. If you take a PADI course in florida, you won't find it hugely relevant to diving in Britain where the conditions are generally colder, stronger currents, bigger waves, lower vis. If on the other hand you train in Britain, PADI courses will prepare you for British conditions just as well as BSAC. When I trained with BSAC the training took place for an hour once a week in the local pool. It was several months before I had completed enough training to even get in the open water. Open water experience is what will make you a better diver and to this extent a course that gets you in the sea faster is a good thing.

So to sum up an overly long post If you are interested in joining exploration in this country get in touch with the CDG and get to know some cave divers as all the other posters have suggested. If on the other hand you are more interested in the odd holiday to florida and the yucatan to dive in some stunning passage in the company of an experienced guide, you might consider my comments above. Regardless of what you do, open water experience will help your confidence and knowledge of the equipment and the physiological aspects of the sport - and is damn good fun in its own right!

Thanks Andrew W.

Just to answer your question-you are not the first to ask- i want to cave dive because-

1) I do not want to get to a sump (that i know has been dived) and wonder what the cave the otherside is like, i don't want to always look at the pictures i would love to have the skill to go through the sump and see the cave for myself-i can only imagine how it feels to enter a new piece of cave that a) i have never been in and b) only certain people are able to go there as they have the skill to

2) (Do not take this point the wrong way) Id like to feel what it is like to go through the submerged overhead environment-i do not know but i think it must be exciting but you will always have the doubt in your mind of what if..

I do not by anymeans think cave diving is romantic with amazing viz, warm water and close escapes where you can joke in the pub after-i do understand how it is risky but as i said above my main reason for wanting to do it is pass sumps in my way. Exploring new cave will come very later but it is always good to think/dream about when bored at work or tinking of the next trip abroad digging or exploring non-diver systems.


Peter-there is a limit o the beer buying-i do need to know the person slightly  

Cheers

Dave said:

1) I do not want to get to a sump (that i know has been dived) and wonder what the cave the otherside is like, i don't want to always look at the pictures i would love to have the skill to go through the sump and see the cave for myself-i can only imagine how it feels to enter a new piece of cave that a) i have never been in and b) only certain people are able to go there as they have the skill to

2) (Do not take this point the wrong way) Id like to feel what it is like to go through the submerged overhead environment-i do not know but i think it must be exciting but you will always have the doubt in your mind of what if..

Click to expand...

I use it as an added skill such as SRT or digging, they all aid my caving and like you say Dave if you come across a sump you can pass it, same as if you come across a pitch you can rig it then descend it.

Stu.