Cylinders - Bar and Litres

Stu

Active member
So a pal of mine has started open water diving. Dead keen he is. So keen he was banging on about it just the other day. He was explaining to me all about his lovely new cylinders. When I asked him why he "measured" some in Bar but others in Litres, he started to get a bit vague. Is there a direct correlation between the two or is there something else? What confused me, though I may have misheard, is that the smaller (is it a pony?) cylinder was more Bar than a larger cylinder.  :-\
 

Stu

Active member
Gotta love Google - it's not either/or but both. A 10L tank at 200Bar = 2000 litres of air, right?
 
A

AMW

Guest
Bar is the pressure (232 or 300 BAR are common)

The litres are the water capacity of the cylinder.


So:

Free Gas Capacity                 litres
Cylinder Pressure             bar
Cylinder Size (measured by water volume) litres

In the formula:

FGC = CP x CS

For a 7 litre cylinder at 220 bar the free gas capacity is:-

CS X CP = FGC
7X220=1540 litres


Andrew.
 

Pitlamp

Well-known member
Or to quote a certain well known Watto, "There's big 'uns and little 'uns. In the Dales you need really big uns to do the distance!"
 

francis

New member
Does air follow the ideal gas laws at such high pressures, or is the above an approximation?

Francis
 
A

AMW

Guest
ideal gas laws at such high pressures,

Once over 240 bar you are into diminishing returns over 300bar and it all gets interesting. (as the law states "Pressure increases Volume decreases")

Andrew
 

Cave_Troll

Active member
the law states ""Pressure increases Volume decreases""
this simply states that if you have 2000 litres and compress it to 200bar it will take up 10l of volume.
if you have 3000 litres and want it to fill a 10 l tank you'll need to compress it to 300bar.

I'm not convinced that 300 bar is a high enough pressure for this rule to start breaking down.
 

Peter Burgess

New member
No gas is truly 'ideal'. The question is at what point does the variation from ideal gas behaviour become significant, and how do you define 'significant' anyway? A very rough rule of thumb is that the lighter the gas (hydrogen, helium) the closer to ideal behaviour, the heavier the gas (carbon dioxide, sulphur dioxide) the further from ideal. Air is sort of in the middle. I also guess that 300 bar is not high enough for a significant variation from ideal behaviour.
 

graham

New member
Anyone who's bonkers enough to try and dive on compressed sulphur dioxide will surely not understand the gas laws anyway.
 
A

AMW

Guest
I'm not convinced that 300 bar is a high enough pressure for this rule to start breaking down.

I did not say it breaks down, merely that it gets interesting. 300bar is not going to give a significant difference,but it is not a linear comparison to 200bar. In reality the difference would be more marked in smaller cylinders 3li or less although the ten bar for the valve would be a bigger loss when working out thirds.

cylinders filled to two or three hundred bar are starting to approach the regime where the simplified Ideal Gas Laws no longer predict reality particularly well. The behaviour of pressure, volume and temperature are no longer linear and things get a bit harder to work out.

The best bet is to use Van der Waal's Equation
An ``ideal gas'' consists of molecules that occupy negligible space and have negligible forces between tham. All collisions made between the molecules, and between the molecules and the walls of the container, would be perfectly elastic since the molecules have no means of storing kinetic energy except as translational kinetic energy (i.e. movement).

The simplest of the equations to try and deal with Real Gases was developed empirically by Johannes van der Waals. He recognised that by adding correction terms to the Ideal Gas Law it could be made to more closely approximate reality. Van der Waals equation is
( P + an2 / V2 )( V - nb ) = nRT

where a is a correction term for intermolecular forces, and b is a correction term for the real volume of the gas molecules. Values of a and b will be different for each gas. Typically all intermolcular forces are refered to as Van der Waals forces.

Andrew.
 

Johnny

New member
:clap: Cheers AMW its good to have an informed opinion on this website instead of the usual b****cks that has become all too regular from certain contributors;

graham said:
Anyone who's bonkers enough to try and dive on compressed sulphur dioxide will surely not understand the gas laws anyway.

Peter Burgess said:
No gas is truly 'ideal'. The question is at what point does the variation from ideal gas behaviour become significant, and how do you define 'significant' anyway? A very rough rule of thumb is that the lighter the gas (hydrogen, helium) the closer to ideal behaviour, the heavier the gas (carbon dioxide, sulphur dioxide) the further from ideal. Air is sort of in the middle. I also guess that 300 bar is not high enough for a significant variation from ideal behaviour.

A similar topic to this has been discussed before;
[/url]http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php/topic,2372.0.html
 
A

AMW

Guest
Cheers AMW its good to have an informed opinion on this website

Thank you  (y), the Van der Waals description (text) is from a diving book I have and quite well know and often repeated . I seem to have a lot of diving text books around at present  :read:



Andrew.
 

Peter Burgess

New member
Andrew, you brought back memories of sitting in dark dreary lecture theatres making indeciperable notes several decades ago. Good stuff.
 

Cave_Troll

Active member
i'm wondering if the temperature of the water (and hence the cylinder and your gas) would have more effect, but thankyou, didn't realise the graph started curving that early.
 
A

AMW

Guest
That would be  Charles' Law

"At a constant pressure, the volume of a gas varies directly with absolute temperature. For any gas at a constant volume, the pressure of a gas varies directly with absolute temperature".

Therefore:

  P1/T1 = P2/T2 (volume constant)
 
  where
  P1 = Initial Pressure (absolute)
  T1 = Initial Temperature (absolute)
  P2 = Final Pressure (absolute)
  T2 = Final Temperature (absolute)

Temperatures in Kelvin.

In simple terms for every change of one degree Celsius, the pressure in a cylinder changes about 0.62 of a bar.

Andrew.
 

Peter Burgess

New member
AMW said:
In simple terms for every change of one degree Celsius, the pressure in a cylinder changes about 0.62 of a bar.

Pardon me for usually talking b*ll*x, but that doesn't sound right, seeing as one atmosphere is roughly one bar. 0.62 Newton per square metre perhaps?
 

Peter Burgess

New member
Take gas at a constant volume at 'ambient' - about 300K, and a P of, say, 10 bar. Raise its temp by 1K.

Then the new pressure is 301 x 10 /300 = 10.0333 Bar - an increase of .0333 Bar.

If the P was 100 Bar, the new P would be 301 x 100 / 300 = 100.3333 - an increase of .3333 Bar. The increase is proportionate to the pressure you start with. For an increase of 0.62 Bar you would need a starting P of 186 Bar. So all that was missing was the starting pressure in your example. Sorry. More b*ll*x.
 
A

AMW

Guest
Peter all this keeps the brain active  o_O

For those wanting to do the maths (and have forgotten) To convert Centigrade to Kelvin just add 273.15 degrees.

Andrew.
 
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