Hi, i'm looking at getting my first set of SRT equipment having started doing a few pitches. it's about time I got my own stuff so i'm not faffing with adjusting harnesses and being unfamiliar with my kit in the cave. Does anyone have any second hand bits for sale, can anyone recommend  a comfy harness for a girl and what do people think to the basic Bernie's Caf? srt package?
Many thanks in advance, Nicky.

Bernies standard srt package is great value! 

I'd put some thought into Torse or 3m tape though for a chest harness and if the Superavanti harness available as the Advance kit package is more suited to a lighter smaller caver as it's a bit more efficient for pruissiking but less comfy for a heavy guy like myself.

Bernies Basic and Advanced kits appear to have a Simple rather than a Stop (i.e. the descender wouldn't have the big red handle that everybody else's descender has). It's a matter of taste, really, but you should be aware of it!

As for harnesses, you could go to Hidden Earth and probably try quite a few! Trying them is the only way you can tell, whether you feel comfy in a harness or not!

Olaf said:

Bernies Basic and Advanced kits appear to have a Simple rather than a Stop (i.e. the descender wouldn't have the big red handle that everybody else's descender has). It's a matter of taste, really, but you should be aware of it!

As for harnesses, you could go to Hidden Earth and probably try quite a few! Trying them is the only way you can tell, whether you feel comfy in a harness or not!

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Not everybody else's descender. I say definitley get a Simple descender, they give much better control. The only reason most UK cavers use a Stop is that they follow the flock and have never used a Simple.

Simon Wilson said:

I say definitley get a Simple descender, they give much better control. The only reason most UK cavers use a Stop is that they follow the flock and have never used a Simple.

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Agreed, I got a Stop on my first SRT kit as that's just what everyone else had. Soon switched to a Simple. I then borrowed a few types of rack to try and ended up making my own to suit my exact needs. Never looked back 

Simon Wilson said:

Not everybody else's descender.

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Indeed! If you can, I'd see if you can borrow a few people various different bits of kit and have a play with them before shelling out. That includes harnesses/chest tapes as well as descenders.

I learnt to cave on a rack and used one for several years (and was very happy with it). I've used a stop a couple of times on expeditions and, whilst I understand their benefits in terms of use in hauling rigs etc, I never actually liked using it as a descender. Last year I won a simple at HE and started using that (as my rack was wearing down) - I wasn't convinced by it to start with but got used to it and now rather like it. It's definitely much smoother than a Stop.

Similarly, I've used various different harnesses and chest tapes over the last few years, some I find much better than others. Currently using an MTDE Amazonia and Alp Design Doma which I find much more comfy and efficient than my previous set-up.  I also much prefer my adjustable footloop compared to my old cheapo one (it makes things like awkward rebelays and knot passes much easier), but obviously they're more expensive. A fair amount of it comes down to comfort/convenience vs how much you can afford, but a lot is just personal preference, so try before you buy if possible. Tony Seddon at Starless River is generally happy for you to have a test of various bits of kit and always gives great advice.

Just to even out the balance a bit, started on a Stop, moved to a Simple, returned to Stop. Prefer the idea of a piece of kit that if you lose hold of the rope gravity doesn't take over. Plus the versatility of it.

Kahula said:

What do people think to the basic Bernie's Caf? srt package?

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I would warn slightly against the Digger harnesses in the "starter" package as they can be near impossible to adjust after a bit of wear; not necessarily a problem but something to be aware of. The Petzl harnesses in the other packages may well be better but again it's personal preference.

I feel a little bit like a Starless River sales rep here but if you want to get everything in one go for a better deal, here is another package you may want to consider, which has a few different items: https://starlessriver.com/shop/ascenders/primary_srt_kit

There are many options for each piece of kit! If you can, get yourself to Hidden Earth and have a good look at everything on offer

+1 for Tony Seddon at Starless River!

I borrowed an SRT kit and it didn't suit my build. I'm quite top heavy and the most upright I could achieve was close to horizontal.
Ascending was hopelessly inefficient and it was deeply uncomfortable.

Tony let me try four sit harnesses and five chest harnesses to find the combination that suited me and I ended up with a combo that lets me hang vertical enough that I can touch the rope with my nose.
I can now ascend with my legs doing all the work; fast and efficient
The fitting was an interesting experience, I learned a lot; Tony knows his stuff!

Really made me appreciate that there isn't an SRT set-up that suites everyone.

Cap'n Chris said:

Just to even out the balance a bit, started on a Stop, moved to a Simple, returned to Stop. Prefer the idea of a piece of kit that if you lose hold of the rope gravity doesn't take over. Plus the versatility of it.

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I suppose it does all come down to personal preference and the type of caving you do.

I found the Stop a total arse when space is constricted as you need a hand on the descender (I know you can put it on a cowstail, but still an arse).

The Simple fixes this problem and is also much smoother.

A petzl rack is very smooth, but far too long and makes free-hanging re-belays very hard work.

I ended up making a U-rack with 4 bars (2 fixed, 2 openable). I made it quite short to suit more technical SRT, rather than long pitches. The compromise here is that if you use a thicker rope it is very slow. I normally use 9mm so this isn't a problem. The other benefit of most racks is the ability to run on a double rope, which can be very handy on a pull-through trip; there is much less chance of the two halves of your rope becoming twisted together as you pull it down

In short, just as there is no one set-up that suits everybody, there is also no one set-up that suits every cave. Any basic kit you get from Bernies, Caveclimb, Starless River or wherever else will be ok, but once you get a bit more experience with it, you may swap out certain bits.

Cap'n Chris said:

Just to even out the balance a bit, started on a Stop, moved to a Simple, returned to Stop. Prefer the idea of a piece of kit that if you lose hold of the rope gravity doesn't take over. Plus the versatility of it.

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We've been here before. I own a Stop which sometimes has slight advantages when rigging and I own a rack which has big advantages on long pitches, can cope with variation in rope size very well and can be used on double ropes but I always take a Simple when caving in the Dales.

Chris, I bet when you're caving you mostly do the rigging using your own large size ropes. One of the many faults of the Stop is that it doesn't always stop when you want it to and never stops on clean 9mm rope.

There is no perfect descender. The Stop would be safer if you were hit by a rock and lost control. But the Simple is generally far easier and smoother, and it's good on all types of rebelay. Gripping the Stop handle can really make your hand ache on a long trip. You can get a steel lower bobbin for the Simple which lasts a very long time - recommended.

David Rose said:

There is no perfect descender. The Stop would be safer if you were hit by a rock and lost control. But the Simple is generally far easier and smoother, and it's good on all types of rebelay. Gripping the Stop handle can really make your hand ache on a long trip. You can get a steel lower bobbin for the Simple which lasts a very long time - recommended.

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A bronze bottom bobbin would be good. I've been meaning to make one for years.

How about Forta LDX2101?

As for descenders I fancy a Kong Banana

I've not come across a steel lower bobbin for the Petzl Simple as Dave mentions, maybe somebody else is making these.

I have been using a Petzl Stop pretty much since they first came out in 1979 and have never had any problems. There are certainly quite a few times i've benefitted from its auto lock facility, albeit it not 100% efficient at stopping you slithering down the rope. Better than almost free falling though, which is what the alternative would have been had I been using a Simple.

It is personal choice at the end of the day.

From my experience of selling descenders and spare parts, most people buy Simple upper and lower bobbins and Rack bars, usually the top two. Back in the early 80's I used to make 1" alloy bars for the top of a rack, maybe your (Simon) bronze idea could be applied here as well.

I will take a wide variety of new, slightly and heavily used gear down to Hidden Earth so people can have a go on it. People are more than welcome to try out a new harness before they buy on the SRT ropes that we will be rigging for the races.

Mark   

I got a steel lower bobbin for my Simple from Tony at Starless River.
It's lasting a lot better than did the original.

Another thumbs up for Tony Seddon and Starless River. Arrange a meet up and I'm sure he will get you sorted with the right gear for your shape, and he will adjust it all properly too.
Well worth the time and whatever the cost is. A harness and gear that's right is worth a lot.

malcolm smith said:

Another thumbs up for Tony Seddon and Starless River. Arrange a meet up and I'm sure he will get you sorted with the right gear for your shape, and he will adjust it all properly too.
Well worth the time and whatever the cost is. A harness and gear that's right is worth a lot.

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This is what I did when I returned to caving after a wee gap of 20+ years.  The time and effort spent getting it just so has proved to be an excellent investment

The aluminium bobbins and frame of a Simple act as a heat sink so there could be a disadvantage in making a bottom bobbin of other materials. Stainless steels have very low conductivity which is why the surface of the bottom bobbin of a Stop can get hot and damage rope. Aluminium alloys have relatively high thermal conductivity; typically around four times that of mild steel. The right brass or bronze could have good wear resistance and thermal conductivity approaching that of aluminium and would be a very good material for a bottom bobbin. There is a trade-off between wear resistance and conductivity because bronzes with very good wear resistance have lower conductivity.

Regarding the Simple vrs. Stop discussion...

Yes, Simple is simpler , easier to use. The reason people use the Stop descender is safety. Especially in places where you have long pitches. Imagine you get hit by a piece of equipment or a falling rock your caving buddy knocked off a ledge 20-30 above you. Your helmet saves your head but you're unconscious and as you couldn't tie in your Simple (as you're unconscious  )  you keep sliding/falling down the rope and break your spine. With a Stop, you'd just be unconscious and it would keep you on the rope where you, well, stopped. And your buddies can lower you to a safe place where you could wait for help.

I realize this isn't a big concern for countries where there are mostly small pitches, but in Croatia where I come from almost everybody uses a Stop.

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Also I'd avoid the Singing Rock Digger Harness, it's very uncomfortable. Maybe look into the MTDE Picos harness. Worth the extra money.