Daleswear to close

alanw

Well-known member
http://www.cravenherald.co.uk/news/localnews/13420873.Ingleton_retailer_to_close_due_to_planning_disputes/
Tom Lambert said he had taken the decision to close Daleswear Outdoors Ltd ? which he started at Ingleton 37 years ago ? as he cannot afford to keep it open.

Daleswear isn't what it used to be. 25 years ago it was a small shop up the hill from Inglesport / Bernies just before the Wheatsheaf, with sewing machines in the back and lots of caving oversuits / undersuits / tackle sacks made on the premises. Then they moved to larger premises on Laundry Lane. Now it's a barn off the main A65 full of big name branded jackets, etc. I still wear their own brand cag I bought there many years ago - covers my bum, unlike all the trendy jackets nowadays.

They've only just opened an upstairs department full of tents and camping gear.
 

Pitlamp

Well-known member
Do you mean "Daleswear" isn't what it used to be?.

Yes, I also have fond memories of that tiny shop in the old telephone exchange just up the road from Bernie's.
 

alanw

Well-known member
Pitlamp said:
Do you mean "Daleswear" isn't what it used to be?.

Doh! Yes - Daleswear. Got it right in the subject, don't know what my fingers were thinking.  o_O o_O o_O
 

Inferus

New member
I recall buying a fleece jacket in the late 90's that I've still got lurking around somewhere and my first undersuit (plus my current one) and first oversuit came from them.. Always a shame to see small local businesses disappear.

Is it a case of closing completely or is it a physical closure and the name will live on in the virtual world??
 

badger

Active member
Tis a shame but must be very difficult for independent stores to compete with the Go Outdoors and the internet
 

Bottlebank

New member
badger said:
Tis a shame but must be very difficult for independent stores to compete with the Go Outdoors and the internet

Especially when they don't encourage customer loyalty - refusing to discount to cavers for example (when Cotswold etc all do) etc.
 

Badlad

Administrator
Staff member
If I understand it correctly Daleswear was up for sale anyway and looking to sell to the likes of Go Outdoors.  The problem for this site is that the original planning permission was for part retail and part manufacturing which suited Daleswear but probably not those who might want to buy an outdoor retail outlet now, so who knows what will happen now.

Daleswear closing will probably help the likes of Inglesport who are much more a specialist caving shop and that might be good for cavers.  However, I do agree with Bottlebank's comment above.

When Alan Steele owned Inglesport he offered nearly all local and frequent visitors a discount as standard.  Many of us have noticed this is no longer the case under the new owner.  Loyalty is key to survival when there is so much choice.  Inglesport would be wise to take note  ;) ;)
 

badger

Active member
unfortunately cant comment on discount/loyalty for ingleton shops, to far down south. I do know for Go Outdoors discount card, ?5.00 year, you do get big discounts on some items and small discount on the whole stock, obviously it is not a specialist selling caving gear. But agree the ingleton shops should seriously consider some of the options to encourage cavers to go to them
 

Pegasus

Administrator
Staff member
Hmmm, I have mixed feeling about retailers giving discounts to customers.  I've worked in the outdoor trade for 20+ years and watched firstly the demise of the traditional sports shop where you'd pop to buy a cricket bat/pair of running shoes etc in favour of the likes of JD Sports & Sports Direct then secondly the loss of many Independent outdoor retailers as brands sell direct with their own stores and via the internet and the likes of Go Outdoors.

The profit margins available to outdoor retailers are not huge and for independent retailers to give discount away really does cut into profitability - no profit, eventually no store.  Does that matter?  I'd say yes, do we really want the choice of Go Outdoors, Sports Direct and not much else? 

However this does mean that the independents have to go that extra mile with both customer service and to maintain customer loyalty - a balance between not giving discount away here, there and everywhere but, yes, recognising loyal customers.


 

Pitlamp

Well-known member
Well said Pegasus.

I've been a customer at Bernie's since I was at school, when Bernard was behind the counter and Alice made those awesome breakfasts. I remained a customer when Steve Round took it over. I was a customer at Inglesport since Alan Steele first opened it - he sometimes kindly picked me up in his Mini van when I was hitching to the Dales, so I went out of my way to shop there. In fact I was a customer at Inglesport before it opened, because it used to be a right gradely fish and chip shop!

I've had nothing but excellent service from both establishments over many years and, frankly, I don't really care if I don't get discount; I'm just grateful they're there and I want them to stay there for us. I go out of my way to spend there.

The same goes for several other specialised caving shops up and down the country which have looked after me as well. Which of course includes Tom Lambert's Daleswear, in its various guises.
 

graham

New member
As others have rightly said, discounts undeniably eat into the margins that make a business viable - or not.

Not that long ago, there were specialist caving shops open 5 or 6 days each week in all of our major caving areas. Now there are not. There are a number of interconnected reasons for this from the rise of internet mail order to a decline in the size of the market. Now, you are not going to get the same expertise and thus service from someone like Go Outdoors as you are from Tony Seddon, so if you want that level of service you are going to have to pay for it.

Of course that won't stop me attempting to negotiate a decent discount if I'm placing a large order for my club, but I won't expect one on every pair of wet socks.
 

Pitlamp

Well-known member
Fair comment Graham.

Incidentally I also very much appreciate the advice which Tony from Starless River has given me. You can't put a price on that kind of thing.

We all need to stay aware of the need to support our specialist retailers.
 

tamarmole

Active member
Customer service before discounts every time.

One story I should relate:  Down in darkest Cornwall popping into the local caving shop isn't an option, we have to buy via t'interweb.  A mate of mine was looking for a new harness and wasn't sure what he needed.  He spoke to the guys at Starless River who took the time to give him some informed advice.  Based on their advice he narrowed his choice down to two harnesses.  S.R sent him both so he could try them and return the one he didn't want.  Doesn't get better than that.
 

Badlad

Administrator
Staff member
Really interesting to consider the future of specialist caving retailers in the Dales (and elsewhere).  It is easy to talk about supporting independent retailers but then so many choose to shop at Decathlon, Go Outdoors and the like for their thermals, boots, wetsuits and other kit because it is cheaper.  It is very difficult for a specialist shop to survive from just selling that widgit that you can't buy elsewhere. 

We used to have a company selling into over three hundred outdoor independent retail outlets across the north of England and have seen so many of them close.  Quite simply they could not compete with the prices offered by the big boys. 

Even in our small caving world today we have someone like Starless River, who offers good brands, a great service AND travels to all the places cavers are, events, huts, car parks etc.  The overheads are low and any traditional shop will struggle to compete on price.  This is how it is.  Offering service isn't enough, cavers want a good price and it is unrealistic to think otherwise.  It is an enormous challenge for shops like Bernies, Inglesport, Hitch n Hike and Caveclimb to survive.  They are going to have to think outside the box and go the extra mile or they will not be here in a ten years time.
 

graham

New member
One of the prices that will be paid, if the specialist boys go, is that

that widgit that you can't buy elsewhere

won't be available from anywhere. We are such a small market that it will not be worth the bigger boys wasting floor space on the low turnover specialist stuff.
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
graham said:
One of the prices that will be paid, if the specialist boys go, is that

that widgit that you can't buy elsewhere

won't be available from anywhere. We are such a small market that it will not be worth the bigger boys wasting floor space on the low turnover specialist stuff.

Helmets suitable for caving - it's already begun. Flimsy light-weight Hybrid (unsuitable for all-purpose caving) helmets are pretty nearly all that's being made now.
 

Pitlamp

Well-known member
Just out of interest Badlad I bought my most recent diving drysuit from Bernie's. This was a big ticket item and a major factor in getting it there, rather than elsewhere, was a desire to support the place. I could probably have found somewhere slightly cheaper elsewhere but I went to Bernie's because of how they've looked after me over the years - for which I'm immensely grateful.
 

Simon Wilson

New member
Cap'n Chris said:
graham said:
One of the prices that will be paid, if the specialist boys go, is that

that widgit that you can't buy elsewhere

won't be available from anywhere. We are such a small market that it will not be worth the bigger boys wasting floor space on the low turnover specialist stuff.

Helmets suitable for caving - it's already begun. Flimsy light-weight Hybrid (unsuitable for all-purpose caving) helmets are pretty nearly all that's being made now.

I agree. We are affected by the small market problem and the market has shrunk since the peak around the 1980s. Daleswear started as a specialist manufacturer and that side of the business has been declining for years. Helmets are a good example; oversuits are another. There is no replacement as good as the Meander suit, that was not as good as the Petzl suit and that was not as good as the TSA. The last two competed with each other in the 80s and they competed on quality probably more than price.

Buy on quality and service not price.
 

Badlad

Administrator
Staff member
If we can't get that widget then we can return to the days of 'make do and mend' I suppose.  Perhaps we are doing that now, using gear designed for rope access, climbing, pressure washing industries etc.

I'll support the independents where I can but like the majority of cavers I also have an eye on price.  A mate recently purchased a wetsuit for ?40 from some discount store and there are many posts on the forum about buying gear cheap from Aldi, etc.  Loyalty is good but it will only go so far.
 
Top