Cliffe Cavern Tyrolean

adep

Member
Having done the new Tyrolean traverse recently into Cliffe cavern, i think it is an excellent bolting job on a difficult pitch, i cant help feeling however that it needs an intermediate belay on the tyrolean as i reckon at some point someone will get badly hung up in the middle of it as it requires a technique that not many people will be used to , if the pitch is split into two then at least it means it is easier to get to someone if they do become stuck.

Think its easy to say that if they cant do it, then they shouldnt be on it, that will become to late if someone is tempted to "give it a go" and gets stuck.

This not meant as a criticism just an after thought
 

hrock

New member
i look forward to hearing want other think to it in-general and to this idea.

my thoughts are:

i dont quite see how you could put a relay in the Tyrolean with out making it in to a Tyrolean and a horizontal tensioned line at best and people can still get stuck in the middle of these two separate things and at the rebely in the middle.

if some one dose get stuck the ropes and  bolts will be fine with the 2person load so you just go and get them if you have to.  but better still would be to talk them out of it.

if you were thinking of a set of botls in the wall that the ropes go close to but not rigging to them then i think this would be a mistake as it could leave you with some one clipped to the wall half attched to the ropes witch would be harder to resolve.

so far of the people i have take up there (most of who had never done a Tirolean before) they have all got up it all be it a bit ungracefully for some of them. i think people need some where to learn good technics and skills or people will think they can do srt when all they can do is get on a rope from a nice ledge and absail in my book if you cant do it free hanging then your blagging it and one day you might get stuck. that said things should be simple and accessible for the masses hens the back end of a bit of cave that see fue people is a good place to put it.

i have been thinking about a laminated crib sheet at the top and bottom.
 

adep

Member
I didn't weigh up the quality of the rock or the practicality of adding another belay as I thought about it afterwards, I appreciate what you say though as it could just be adding another element of complication by adding a rebelay and that could be a bad thing and result in creating more problems, but I still think it should be considered as I reckon to try and talk someone out of it from either end would not be easy, and a mid rope rescue on a tyrolean would be a nightmare.

By having a rebelay it would at least feel less committing, anyway it's only a thought and I am most likely getting it out of proportion.

Great bolting job though and probably the best solution all round
 

cavermark

New member
adep said:
Think its easy to say that if they cant do it, then they shouldnt be on it, that will become to late if someone is tempted to "give it a go" and gets stuck.

Surely this is the case with any SRT? - people who haven't been trained and practised it somewhere suitable might have a problem going straight to somewhere with rebelays or knot passes?

I think the laminated card should read - "if no one in your group has ever done a tyrolean, or knows how to go about rescuing someone off a tyrolean, is this the best place to try it out?"
 

hrock

New member
I think the laminated card should read - "if no one in your group has ever done a tyrolean, or knows how to go about rescuing someone off a tyrolean, is this the best place to try it out?"

i think that sort of thing is for individuals to decide i am not going to say any one is competent to do it or not thats there call. i was just thinking of information not opinion.

if some one wants to read up on the technique and talk to some one in the pub then go try it,  thats great.  They will probably do better than lots of cavers who "know better"

so far the most strung up some on my trips has got was some one who has done them before and should know better.

its almost impossible to actually fall when free hanging on rope. any rescue would just be a cold tired person with 2 exception i can think of that would be:
the clip in at the top and slide/free fall hitting the wall and breaking things (though actualy there is a good chance you would miss most stuf)  the top rebely is free hanging make this very hard to do.

more of a problem would be some one not clipping the tiroline and just absailing down to the loose boldeds and knocking stuf off on them or others.

both of these options would be described as personal incompetence in my book and it is not possible for caves to be made completely safe for the incompetent so i would rather the ropes where safe to pass and it was some ones personal incompetence that was there demise. than rigging that had rub point in or where rock fall was a risk but it was easy to pass.

in my opinion fixed rigging should be uncompromisingly safe even if that makes it technically difficult to follow.         
 

zomjon

Member
I'm guessing that the Cliffe Cavern Tyrolean is a lot more technical/challenging than the one in Maskill? 
 

bograt

Active member
The policy on fixed aids is to make things safer, not necessarily easier, some would think that putting a passing point part way along a traverse line would add another risk point.
 

DANIEL

New member
My personal opinion is that I've been up there a few times since Henry has bolted it and think it's absolutely spot on!  I use a pulley on my short cows tail to follow up the Tyrolean, if you get yourself in the right position before ascending you can guide as sweet as a nut both up and down.
 

Pitlamp

Well-known member
hrock is the bloke who actually got off his backside and sorted this one out. He knows ropework very well. I'm just grateful that he's done this job and I'm entirely happy to leave decisions on the detail of the route to him.

Well done lad.
 

Rob

Well-known member
...and good to see he's stuck to his word and started digging as soon as the rigging was complete. We need more people attacking these big projects.
 

adep

Member
Pitlamp said:
hrock is the bloke who actually got off his backside and sorted this one out. He knows ropework very well. I'm just grateful that he's done this job and I'm entirely happy to leave decisions on the detail of the route to him.

Well done lad.

I totally agree, as I have already said, I am not criticising in any way and I think it is a spot on bolting job, I think that after a system has been running for a while if any useful suggestions for improvement can be made then they should be considered, I made the suggestion of an additional belay as an afterthought after I had done it, the consensus seems to be that it is unessasary and would cause more problems than it would solve.

Keep up the good work henry
 

Pitlamp

Well-known member
Fair comment adep. (Don't worry; I realised your words were only intended to be positive.)

The problem with the top of Cliff Cavern was that the route across to the Joint Effort side was always dodgy - it was the easiest line of attack from a climbing perspective rather than the optimum route for SRT. Many of the bolts were in chossy calcite, which was also very greasy underfoot. I actually took a fair whipper off the "Risky Business" traverse (as it was named) at the time - and count myself lucky that none of the bolts popped.

Of course, what was originally a "pushing the system" situation eventually becomes the SRT trade route. That's why I'm so pleased that hrock has finally sorted something out properly.

I still think that the western end of Cliffhanger has huge potential, if enough folk co-operated on a decent project approach. Peaks expedition job?
 

Badlad

Administrator
Staff member
I went up Cliff Cavern a few weeks ago and found the rigging to be excellent considering the nature of the place.  There would seem very little reason for cavers to go across the tryolean unless they are involved with Henry's dig as there is just not much there to see.  The more interesting 'trip' would be to Cliffhanger, on the other side, and it is a simple traverse from the top of the rope to get into that passage. 

One useful technique for these long diagonal tensioned lines is to clip the two ropes together with a carabiner and prussic up behind it on the slack rope.  This means you can prussic vertically rather than at some stained angle.  You just push the krab forward every couple of steps.  Of course, you want to try this out at your SRT training venue first and not at Cliffe Cavern, it's a great fun technique.

 

owd git

Active member
sounds a good tip Badlad, not really a pendant ; but crab and a pully would avoid wear on Henry's rigging, eh? (y)
O. G.
 

hrock

New member
sounds a good tip Badlad, not really a pendant ; but crab and a pully would avoid wear on Henry's rigging, eh? (y)
O. G.

if you really want to stop the wear on ropes dont go up them at all then they last for ages.

thanks for all the positive feed back and almost more so the negative too. questioning is the only way things get better. its an important part of getting the best solution teaching me to rig better and all of us learning. so feel to say what you want i am happy with a bit of criticism.

yes pit lamp there is so much to do up there we do need some other to take on some protects up there or even some nice easy starter protects else where in the system i have one that is crying out for 2 keen novices diggers cos its simple non technical and only needs 2 people.       
 

adep

Member
hrock said:
sounds a good tip Badlad, not really a pendant ; but crab and a pully would avoid wear on Henry's rigging, eh? (y)
O. G.
Where is that then??, you can message me the location!!

if you really want to stop the wear on ropes dont go up them at all then they last for ages.

thanks for all the positive feed back and almost more so the negative too. questioning is the only way things get better. its an important part of getting the best solution teaching me to rig better and all of us learning. so feel to say what you want i am happy with a bit of criticism.

yes pit lamp there is so much to do up there we do need some other to take on some protects up there or even some nice easy starter protects else where in the system i have one that is crying out for 2 keen novices diggers cos its simple non technical and only needs 2 people.     
 

Badlad

Administrator
Staff member
owd git said:
sounds a good tip Badlad, not really a pendant ; but crab and a pully would avoid wear on Henry's rigging, eh? (y)
O. G.

Only just noticed this comment.  :eek:  O.G. - I'm sure you are trying to be helpful but with this advanced technique your suggestion would actually make it very inefficient and potentially dangerous.

It needs to be a carabiner as that gives the friction required.  If you were to use a pulley then the friction will be next to nowt and the system does not work very well and, of course, has the potential for unzipping at speed.  Always use the long cowstail on the tyrolean rope as a safety measure.  ...and as I said, ... most importantly try these sorts of techniques out at your local SRT training venue first. :read:
 

Mike Hopley

New member
Badlad said:
One useful technique for these long diagonal tensioned lines is to clip the two ropes together with a carabiner and prussic up behind it on the slack rope.

A similar option, recommended in Vertical, is to climb on the slack rope while clipped to the tight rope with the short cowstail.

Add a spare carabiner, clipped to the cowstail carabiner and the slack rope. This links the ropes indirectly, allowing some play (you climb beneath the linking carabiner).
 

Paul Dyson

New member
Badlad said:
owd git said:
sounds a good tip Badlad, not really a pendant ; but crab and a pully would avoid wear on Henry's rigging, eh? (y)
O. G.

Only just noticed this comment.  :eek:  O.G. - I'm sure you are trying to be helpful but with this advanced technique your suggestion would actually make it very inefficient and potentially dangerous.

It needs to be a carabiner as that gives the friction required.  If you were to use a pulley then the friction will be next to nowt and the system does not work very well and, of course, has the potential for unzipping at speed.  Always use the long cowstail on the tyrolean rope as a safety measure.  ...and as I said, ... most importantly try these sorts of techniques out at your local SRT training venue first. :read:

Think somebody misunderstood what expert advice Badlad that you was giving,
Its a very good technique, going up your rope with a krab just above you joining that and the tension line together and moving it up as and when you need too, and a long cowstail as a extra link, to avoid a huge pendulum if krab unclips, as going up,
Good tip Badlad,
good advise to test out technique in a safer environment and not be a DCRO statistic in a yearly bulliton
 
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