Cliff Cavern Ropes

MikeyP

Member
Anyone know what the state of the insitu ropes/krabs up to cliff hanger and puzzling evidence are like these days?

Never been up there and would like to see the place. They both look in good condition from the bottom, but then i've no idea what they're attached to!

Anyone been up them recently?
 

blakey

Member
Hi Mikey,

Tried to go up there last week as I hadn't been up there before either, ropes were in good condition, its the bolts and crabs that were worrying, I have reported it to DCA.
Personally I wouldn't ascend the ropes there without taking bolting kit to re-bolt it on the way back down.

I made a judgement call at the first re-belay to sack it off, I said in my email I am happy to help with re-bolting, carrying kit etc
Havent heard anything back thus far but I am sure they are on it.
 

Rob

Well-known member
I know that p-bolting Cliff Cavern is high on the agenda of the DCA. I also know it has been for many years (+5). Not sure what the time delay is, possibly something regarding get the bolts.  :confused:

Either way, for the benefit of the cave, i don't think anyone should rebolt it unless it's done permenantly, i.e. with p-bolts. Replacing the carabiners may be a good compromise if someone is on their way past...
 

blakey

Member
Don't worry Rob, I agree with you completely. I wasn't intending on heading up there without consulting the DCA.

 

MikeyP

Member
Cheers for the replies! Might leave it for the time being then, or wait till/if it gets connected to Western highway  (y)
 

paul

Moderator
[gmod]I've split the general discussion about P Bolts and moved them to the Equipment section[/gmod]
 

pwhole

Well-known member
I'd also be very keen on it being P-bolted soon, as it one of the sites I kinda need to see, and have been holding off as I'd heard some rigging was good and fairly recent and some not so good, but it wasn't exactly clear which pitch was the fresh one. I'd also be happy to offer my services as support crew if help is all is needed if/when the bolts are available? Are we just waiting for the new stocks to be tested? I can't remember what the status is now.
 

martinm

New member
pwhole said:
Are we just waiting for the new stocks to be tested? I can't remember what the status is now.

I'm pretty sure Bob Dearman (DCA Chairman) told me he'd got a load (of the originals, I think) in his garage. I will inquire, also ask for a list of trained bolt installers, also ask for a list of sites that are earmarked for P bolts, then maybe we can get something arranged. I'll get back to you in due course.

Regards, Mel. (DCA Cons. Officer.)
 

Jenny P

Active member
It is the responsibility of the Peak Key-holders to determine whether fixed aids, such as P-bolts (or any other bolts) are to be placed in the Peak/Speedwell system.  If P-bolts are wanted, the Key-holders will ask for DCA's assistance in installing them as DCA has a team of trained installers.

The question of placing P-bolts in Cliff Cavern has already been raised and DCA Council has already agreed, in principle, that our installers will do this when requested and when all necessary bolts and resin are available.  The bolts and resin are supplied by BCA, at no charge to DCA, on the understanding that they will only be placed by trained installers.

If any caver or club wishes to ask that P-bolts be installed at a new site, they should first approach the DCA Equipment Officer, who will take the matter to DCA Council for approval. 

Jenny Potts,
DCA Hon. Secretary



 

Bottlebank

New member
Wow!

Jenny P said:
If any caver or club wishes to ask that P-bolts be installed at a new site, they should first approach the DCA Equipment Officer, who will take the matter to DCA Council for approval. 

So if I find a new pitch, and want to put a bolt or two in, so I can perhaps have a mooch round at the bottom of it, I have to ask a DCA Equipment Officer and wait while he/she gets approval from the DCA Council, and then for bolts and resin to be available, and then for a trained installer to have time to do the job?

If you don't mind me asking how long does that take? I knew there was a reason I don't dig much in Derbyshire or bother with P bolts :)

We found a new pitch in Yorkshire last year and five minutes later it was bolted and rigged - incredibly it only took one person. Everyone else just stood round and watched!
 

Jenny P

Active member
Don't forget we are only talking about P-bolts, funded by BCA and being installed by DCA - not any other anchors you want to place for your own use.  The P-bolt installations are designed to be bomb-proof and pretty well permanent and to be installed on pitches which get a lot of use year after year.  That's why we keep detailed records with a unique individual identifier for each bolt, the name of the installer who put it in, the date, the batch no. of both resin and bolt and exactly where it was installed in which cave, etc.  That's also why we do check them regularly and would be able to follow up if, for instance, if it were found that a sequence of bolts which were all installed using a specific resin batch appeared to be failing.

DCA doesn't install any other type of anchor, so if you find a new pitch and want to put in your own bolts to explore - then that's up to you.  But once it becomes a "trade route" with lots of people using it and all the wear and tear which that implies, then if there is a request, DCA will put in the P-bolts, funded by BCA and designed to last for many years - longer than almost all other fixings.  In addition DCA has "approved in principle" installations which we knew would be asked for in the next few months so that there would be no delay once it had been agreed what would be bolted.

Maybe you have forgotten the situation which occurred in the 1980's and early 1990's: pitch heads peppered with useless anchors with stripped threads, everyone putting in their own anchors and 8mm bolts because they didn't trust what had been put in before.  People going caving carrying bags of 8mm bolts to screw into the anchors already in place, hangers, a spanner and spare anchors and bolting kit because you never knew what duff anchor you might have to replace. 

We can do rather better than that now and none of the P-bolts installed since the work was begun in Yorkshire and Derbyshire 1992 - over 20 years ago now - has failed.  But it does take rather longer than 5 mins. to put one in. 

 

Bottlebank

New member
I think it's the "taking to the council for approval" bit that cracks me up :)

I remember it well. It wasn't actually that bad in most caves, but yes, P hangers were a good idea, but who'd have thought that so much bureaucracy would spring up around them?

I also thought then and still think now that the policy of fitting them on easily accessible first pitches and open shafts was dodgy - they should have been left needing hangers before they could be used. In practice I think my own experience has proved this right, we've rescued one group, one solo caver and another group over the years, it's pretty doubtful any of these would have been where they were had they not been able to clip their shiny new kit straight into a P hanger. I've no idea what other peoples experiences have been but I'm betting we're not alone.
 

Pete K

Well-known member
You can buy hanger plates for SPITS in the same shop that they got their shiny new kit from. Perhaps vet sales of caving kit? We'll of course need to chop all the nearby trees down too.
I love the look of a piece of limestone that's peppered with rusting bolts from the past.

Keep up the good work DCA.
 

Antwan

Member
I think they would have bought some shiney new hangers and bolts, ending up in the same place with you lot having to use the same dodgy anchors to rescue them IMHO
 

T pot 2

Active member
I am all up for the DCA bolting program and the way it works. But surely if you find a new cave or indeed want a better challenge to bottom a known one rig off natural belays like it was done when Noah floated his ark  :LOL:


T pot
 

Rob

Well-known member
I also think the approach the DCA take regarding P-bolts is probably a good one. The main problem, which has continually been brought up over the last +6 years (often with Cliff Cavern as the exemplar), is that there are no P-bolts available!

Whilst those involved deliberate over the probably quite important issues, people are either risking their balls on crap rigging or chosing not to go places for the worse of the sport. Cliff Cavern is a great place, almost Titan-like and with some really interesting leads.

Please get them available as soon as possible, before people decide to put other alternatives in.
 

Bottlebank

New member
Of course it's possible they'd have ended up in the same place with shiny new hangers, but at least to get them they'd have had chance to discuss what they were doing with a caver behind the counter, and in the case of one group may have discovered that Diccan isn't a through trip, and you can't do it with one karabiner, a single climbing rope and no upping gear. Or they may even have spotted the poster on the wall with the survey on and realised there was more than one pitch and no hole marked "Exit" at the bottom, or they could even have borrowed the guide book (available to browse in both local shops) and read the description. If they'd ever been in a caving shop they'd probably have been safer.

And as for naturals, anyone who's caved fairly extensively here and abroad will know they are still used frequently, so the ark and Noah must have lasted pretty well.

My point is that the appearance of P hangers in some places on easily accessible pitches has increased the risk of accidents, I'm not bothered if people disagree but it is something I think should be considered.
 

Pitlamp

Well-known member
I was one of those who actually explored the passages in both directions up Cliff Cavern - please could I just say that I, at least, would be very pleased to see the pitches bolted safely with P hangers or whatever is decided as the most suitable equivalent.
 

Jenny P

Active member
Rob said:
I also think the approach the DCA take regarding P-bolts is probably a good one. The main problem, which has continually been brought up over the last +6 years (often with Cliff Cavern as the exemplar), is that there are no P-bolts available!

Whilst those involved deliberate over the probably quite important issues, people are either risking their balls on crap rigging or chosing not to go places for the worse of the sport. Cliff Cavern is a great place, almost Titan-like and with some really interesting leads.

Please get them available as soon as possible, before people decide to put other alternatives in.

Appreciate that there has been a problem with the bolt supply after DMM ceased to make them.  It is a pretty specialist market!  Initially it was thought a new supplier had been found (the original sample supplied for testing had been OK) but the first batch of bolts obtained for installation was also tested and some in the batch found to be defective so that supplier could not be used after all - quality control is very important!  Unfortunately it took a quite a while to test to determine that these bolts supplied for installation could not to be used and the search for a supplier had to start all over again. 

A new supplier has now been found and it's hoped that suitable bolts will soon be available for use.  The DCA Equipment Officer is aware of the situation and it's already agreed the installation in Cliff Cavern will go ahead a.s.a.p.

 
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