Caving under lockdown 3.0 (Split from Re: CNCC updated advice)

Rob

Well-known member
Great that you are being proactive and giving sensible advice really soon.  (y)

Can i just check one (very important) element:

CNCC said:
...However, this exercise must only be taken alone, with your household/ bubble, or with one other person, and it must be in your immediate local area (defined as your village, town or part of the city in which you live)....

This seems to counteract the gov guidance which states:
The list of reasons you can leave your home and area include, but are not limited to:

outdoor exercise. This should be done locally wherever possible, but you can travel a short distance within your area [note area, not local area] to do so if necessary (for example, to access an open space)

This suggests i'm OK to drive within my "area" (never actually defined) to then exercise in a cave, if there is not a suitable one within my "local area". I'm not wanting to knitpick, but this could make a huge difference for how us law abiding cavers behave over the next few months.
 

Stu

Active member
Rob said:
Great that you are being proactive and giving sensible advice really soon.  (y)

Can i just check one (very important) element:

CNCC said:
...However, this exercise must only be taken alone, with your household/ bubble, or with one other person, and it must be in your immediate local area (defined as your village, town or part of the city in which you live)....

This seems to counteract the gov guidance which states:
The list of reasons you can leave your home and area include, but are not limited to:

outdoor exercise. This should be done locally wherever possible, but you can travel a short distance within your area [note area, not local area] to do so if necessary (for example, to access an open space)

This suggests i'm OK to drive within my "area" (never actually defined) to then exercise in a cave, if there is not a suitable one within my "local area". I'm not wanting to knitpick, but this could make a huge difference for how us law abiding cavers behave over the next few months.

If you want to go with that Rob, fill your boots. But we all know that the intention here is, if you live in a block of flats with your nearest green space a short drive away, then drive. You can surely find some green space near to you to do some exercise. Might be a different flavour of exercise though. That's the bit you don't like isn't it?

The guidance is based on law. Law is a must. Guidance is a mix of must and should. Intent is based on what does the guidance reasonably intend. That's how English law works. Police have the legal power to FPN anyone they think is not complying with lockdown.
 

Roger W

Well-known member
Your argument, Rob, seems to be based on the presumption that either a: caving is the only possible form of exercise you can take, or b: the legislation and guidance give you the right to decide what form your exercise is going to take.

In either case, I rather think that the police will shake their head at your decision to drive x miles to your nearest caving area and suggest that you go home and take a walk around your block.
 

Pete K

Well-known member
Roger W said:
Your argument, [...]
I don't read Rob's post as an argument at all. He's seeking a clarification on a point.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/national-lockdown-stay-at-home#exercising-and-meeting-other-people
 

PeteHall

Moderator
Rob's question applies as much to any other form of exercise as caving.

As I have commented on the BMC guidance thread, based on the interpretation provided, I couldn't walk on any of the footpaths outside my village, I would only be permitted to walk around in circles in the village. I am very confident that this is not the intent of the legislation.

As there is a busy road in/out of the village, it is much safer and more sensible (particularly with children) to drive a mile out of the village to where the path starts and I'm sure that the legislation intends for me to do this.

By the same interpretation, if I lived in Kirkby Lonsdale, it would seem perfectly ok within the intent of the legislation to drive up to Bull Pot Farm and go down Mistral Hole for example, but this is not how the BMC or CNCC guidance has interpreted things. Clearly we do need clarification.
 

Stu

Active member
Pete K said:
Roger W said:
Your argument, [...]
I don't read Rob's post as an argument at all. He's seeking a clarification on a point.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/national-lockdown-stay-at-home#exercising-and-meeting-other-people

I'm reading "argument" in its none volatile state.
 

MarkS

Moderator
I think there is inevitably a grey area here. If there is a cave 200 m away from your house and you want to do exercise by going down it, it is probably fine. However, if you decide that caving is your exercise of choice and therefore travel miles past open countryside (where you could be walking/running/cycling etc.) in order to get to a cave, that probably isn't fine. The grey area arises if you live "quite close" to a cave, and that will presumably have to be a personal decision.

Rob said:
This suggests i'm OK to drive within my "area" (never actually defined) to then exercise in a cave, if there is not a suitable one within my "local area".

I think it is probably questionable as to how much we should decide how far to travel to exercise based on the specific type of exercise we want to do, as opposed to choosing the type of exercise based on the nature of our local area?
 

Stu

Active member
PeteHall said:
Rob's question applies as much to any other form of exercise as caving.

As I have commented on the BMC guidance thread, based on the interpretation provided, I couldn't walk on any of the footpaths outside my village, I would only be permitted to walk around in circles in the village. I am very confident that this is not the intent of the legislation.

As there is a busy road in/out of the village, it is much safer and more sensible (particularly with children) to drive a mile out of the village to where the path starts and I'm sure that the legislation intends for me to do this.

By the same interpretation, if I lived in Kirkby Lonsdale, it would seem perfectly ok within the intent of the legislation to drive up to Bull Pot Farm and go down Mistral Hole for example, but this is not how the BMC or CNCC guidance has interpreted things. Clearly we do need clarification.

The intention of the legislation is for people to stay at home. Exceptions allow a form of exercise to get some air and heads pace/phys. Find a patch of grass and do a Joe Wicks.
 

aardgoose

Member
The amendments to the legislation are now available, but the combined  version isn't yet. The most significant thing from a caving point of view is that the reasons to leave home have been reduced, specifically the following has been removed from the tier 4 section (Schedule 3A):

(d) to visit a public outdoor place for the purposes of open air recreation
  • (i) alone,
  • (ii) with
    • (aa) one or more members of their household, their linked household, or
    • (bb) where open air recreation is being taken as part of providing informal childcare for a child aged 13 or under, one or more members of their linked childcare household, or
  • (iii) with one other person who is not a member of their household or their linked household,and sub-paragraph (3) applies in determining whether a person is complying with the limits in this sub-paragraph;

So the major difference exercise is allowed but not recreation, so if you enjoy it, its not allowed!


Apart from that the legislation can now be policed by PCSOs and references to indoor sports facilities now include outdoor facilities. This is from a quick look so I might have missed something.
 

PeteHall

Moderator
aardgoose said:
So the major difference exercise is allowed but not recreation, so if you enjoy it, its not allowed!

From: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/national-lockdown-stay-at-home#exercising-and-meeting-other-people
You can only leave your home to exercise, and not for the purpose of recreation or leisure (e.g. a picnic or a social meeting)

Based on the examples provided, there is no indication that exercise that you enjoy is classed as recreation rather than exercise.
 

Bob Mehew

Well-known member
I suggest you read all of the guidance at https://www.gov.uk/guidance/national-lockdown-stay-at-home to get as good an understadnign as possible without recourse to the law.  You will find there is a piece on travel which is also subject to restrictions based on a reasonable excuse.  To quote:

Travel - You must not leave your home unless you have a reasonable excuse (for example, for work or education purposes).

? outdoor exercise. This should be done locally wherever possible, but you can travel a short distance within your area to do so if necessary (for example, to access an open space)




 

aardgoose

Member
I wasn't being entirely serious about exercise vs recreation, but it implies that if you can exercise locally without enjoyment, you have no excuse to travel further to do something you would enjoy, because that would be unreasonable.

The people putting these rules in place think that the walk from a taxi to their favourite gentleman's club is strenuous exercise.

The police in London are taking a stricter approach, and there are reports of people being fined after inter tier movement, although not strictly banned, but seen as without 'reasonable excuse'.

The Scottish regs. are clearer, keep within or up to 5 miles outside your local council area.
 

Pitlamp

Well-known member
aardgoose said:
The people putting these rules in place think that the walk from a taxi to their favourite gentleman's club is strenuous exercise.

I suspect you're right. To be fair though, I really don't envy their job. Clearly it's impossible to cover every situation and, at the end of the day, we all need to apply common sense.

Someone elsewhere on this forum usefully suggested a while ago that the coronavirus rules / advice are a bit like the speed limit on a road; they don't mean you should be at the speed limit all the time, particularly when conditions are unsafe.

A lot of people seem to have become detuned to the fact that we're still in a serious pandemic and people are dying in worryingly large numbers. Among those who survive there is a significant number who experience long term health issues. We don't even know how long yet; maybe for life? I'm as keen as anyone to get back to normal caving but I'm happy to give much lower priority to my chosen pastime for a while longer, to do my bit to help this awful situation get resolved as soon as possible.
 

mikem

Well-known member
Still no real point discussing it further, or trying to provide advice until the actual legislation is updated - previous guidance has contained far more rules than the law actually did!
 

Bob Mehew

Well-known member
mikem said:
Still no real point discussing it further, or trying to provide advice until the actual legislation is updated - previous guidance has contained far more rules than the law actually did!
Ah.  Be careful because often the application of an exception or reasonbable excuse was subject to compliance with both a health & safety risk assessment and compliance with government guidance.  So the guidance up on the government's web site plus any linked web sites it offered (which it did for hostels / caving club hut) was effectively law.  Sneaky - yes!
 

PeteHall

Moderator
mikem said:
Still no real point discussing it further, or trying to provide advice until the actual legislation is updated - previous guidance has contained far more rules than the law actually did!

Am I missing something, it states at the top of Schedule 3A
Changes to legislation: There are currently no known outstanding effects for the The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (All Tiers) (England) Regulations 2020, SCHEDULE3A
Suggesting it is all up to date.

The legislation currently states (relevant bits in red):
SCHEDULE 3A
Tier 4 restrictions


PART 1
Restrictions on movement​

Restrictions on leaving home
1.?(1) No person who lives in the Tier 4 area may leave or be outside of the place where they are living without reasonable excuse.
(2) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (1)?
    (a)the circumstances in which a person has a reasonable excuse include where one of the exceptions set out in paragraph 2 applies;
    (b)the place where a person is living includes the premises where they live together with any garden, yard, passage, stair, garage, outhouse or other appurtenance of such premises.
(3) This paragraph does not apply to any person who is homeless.
(4) For the purposes of this Part of this Schedule, a person lives in the Tier 4 area if any part of the place where that person lives is in the Tier 4 area.

Exceptions: leaving home
2.?(1) These are the exceptions referred to in paragraph 1.
Exception 1: leaving home necessary for certain purposes
(2) Exception 1 is that it is reasonably necessary for the person concerned (?P?) to leave or be outside the place where P is living (?P?s home?)?
    (a)to buy goods or obtain services from any business or service listed in paragraph 17, for?
          (i)P or for those in the same household,
          (ii)vulnerable persons or persons who have a disability, or
          (iii)persons in the same household as a vulnerable person or a person who has a disability;
    (b)to obtain money from or deposit money with any business listed in paragraph 17(k) or (l) of this Schedule;
    (c)to take exercise outside?
          (i)alone,
          (ii)with?
              (aa)one or more members of their household, their linked household, or

              (bb)where exercise is being taken as part of providing informal childcare for a child aged 13 or under, one or more members of their linked childcare household, or
          (iii)in a public outdoor place, with one other person who is not a member of their household, their linked household or their linked childcare household,
        and sub-paragraph (3) applies in determining whether a person is complying with the limits in this sub-paragraph;
(3) For the purposes of determining whether a person is complying with the limits in?
    (a)sub-paragraph (2)(c)(ii) F7... , no account is to be taken of any person who is present as a carer for a person with a disability who needs continuous care (a ?carer?),
    (b)sub-paragraph (2)(c)(iii) F8... , no account is to be taken of a carer or a child below the age of five,
    provided that, in either case, there are no more than two people present in the capacity of carer.
(4) A place is a public outdoor place for the purposes of this paragraph if it is a public outdoor place other than a fairground or funfair and?
    (a)no payment is required by any member of the public to access that place
, or
    (b)the place falls within one of the following categories?
          (i). . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
          (ii)botanical gardens,
          (iii)gardens or grounds of a castle, stately home, historic house or other heritage site.

I believe that from the perspective of caving, what the law states is that:
    - you can exercise alone or with your household/ bubble anywhere outside
    - you can exercise with someone outside your household or bubble in any public outdoor space, as long as you don't have to pay to access it.

I can't find any restrictions on traveling for exercise, frequency of exercise, or overnight stays within the legislation, so unless I'm looking in the wrong place, I assume that all these fall within the guidance.

What is the difference between legislation and guidance?
To find out exactly what the rules are during the coronavirus pandemic, you need to look at both legislation and government guidance. Legislation sets out legal obligations and restrictions that are enforceable by law. If you do not abide by the legislation you are breaking the law. Guidance and advice is likely to be based on legislation (in which case it will be legally binding) and it might offer the best or most appropriate way to adhere to the law.

The law is what you must do; the guidance might be a mixture of what you must do and what you should do.
 

aardgoose

Member
It's been updated since this AM.

Staying overnight elsewhere isn't listed as a valid reason to leave your home or be outside it.

What the courts etc may consider 'reasonable' probably aren't what you consider reasonable. The terms 'reasonable excuse' and 'reasonably necessary' are there to allow some flexibility but not to allow people to do anything they want.





 

Bob Mehew

Well-known member
PeteHall said:
Am I missing something, it states at the top of Schedule 3A
Changes to legislation: There are currently no known outstanding effects for the The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (All Tiers) (England) Regulations 2020, SCHEDULE3A
Suggesting it is all up to date.
Unfortunately it said that on the basis of the previous change and was not true as of last night.  I have gone by the date stamp on the pdf version of when the update occurred or else track down in what I am reading something where SI 2021/8 inserts something to confirm it is updated.    As aardgoose comments the web site version is up to date as at https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1374 and does not cite your quote.  (If you want to check whether it is up to date, then search for 2021/8 and with luck you should find something like "Sch. 3A para. 2(2)(d)(da) omitted (6.1.2021) by virtue of The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (No. 3) and (All Tiers) (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2021 (S.I. 2021/8), regs. 1(2), 3(4)(a)".) 

The pdf version seems to be off line and the plain text version at 140 pages long is taking time to digest, time I don't really have due to other pressures.
 

PeteHall

Moderator
Bob Mehew said:
the web site version is up to date as at https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1374 and does not cite your quote.

Which bit of my quote isn't included Bob? I've followed you link and all the text I quoted appears identical (albeit your link goes to the whole of the legislation, and therefore the note at the top differs in that it relates to the whole legislation, not just Schedule 3A)
 
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