I've not been to GG for some years and my access information is out of date. Do you still have to apply to the Estate Office for a permit?

Yes
Ingleborough Estate Office,
Clapham
via Lancaster
LA2 8DR

and I think you need to send a stamped self-addressed envelope

Nothings changed. Get a permit, walk up the hill and wonder what the other people are doing down the cave you're trying to rig.

Yes - it is annoying when you do things properly and other fellow cavers have let you down by risking antagonising a landowner - in the case of Gaping Gill a landowner to whom we owe a vast debt of gratitude for his encouragement and welcome over more than 50 years to cavers.

You will find the lady who works in the Ingleborough Estate Office is extremely helpful. Is it really too much to expect that you just ask beforehand?

You need a permit for GG?? I always wondered why one group of people got p*ssed off when 4 different sets of rope hung down Bar.

:roll:

CN.

Cumbrian Neil said:

You need a permit for GG?? I always wondered why one group of people got p*ssed off when 4 different sets of rope hung down Bar.
:roll:
CN.

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I would have thought the chances of meeting other parties was less now, what with declining caver numbers!

It seems my access information was still up to date.
Thanks to those who replied; I've written off for a permit.
A discussion on permits would be interesting, but unwise!

chriscastle46 said:

A discussion on permits would be interesting, but unwise!

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Ohh, I don't know, it would be quite amusing I think!!

What's a permit??




:wink:

Hammy said:

What's a permit??




:wink:

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Bit of metal about nine inches to a foot long with a pair of adjustable jaws at one end. Sometimes borrowable from a local pub.

Could someone clarify - to you have to write in advance and get your permit in the post - or can you just turn up at the office - which I assume is the one at the bottom by the gate where folks pay to get access to the estate - and get your permit on the day.

GG you need to write in advance, Sam - there's no monies involved but it's not the same office. If you have the number they seem OK with you ringing the office, too - quite a few times I've rung up a couple of days ahead to see what's available and had decent trips.

Out of ignorance... can any old bloke get a permit from Ingleborough Estates... or do you have to prove insurance etc.?

Seriously, in 19 years of caving in GG I have never had a permit (sorry if I ever had ropes down a cave you had a legitimate permit for).



CN.

CN; all you need to do is write to :

Ingleborough Estate Office,
Clapham,
Lancaster,
LA28DR

You will find them very helpful and supportive to cavers.


Chris Castle: sorry to be pedantic but it should be spelt Gaping Gill (not "Ghyll"). The latter spelling is generally regarded as a deliberate corruption probably initiated by William Wordsworth in order to embellish his writings. The word "gill" originated from the norse and means a steep ravine. The Vikings were here long before WW, so maybe we should avoid later corruptions?

As I said, apologies for pedantry.

Sorry Pitlamp, but my Dave Elliot SRT rigging guide, otherwise called my Bible spells it Ghyll.

Needless to say, for me it will always be Ghyll

Both the Bradford and the Craven call it "Gaping Gill" - I expect they should know.

Pitlamp said:

The word "gill" originated from the norse and means a steep ravine. The Vikings were here long before WW, so maybe we should avoid later corruptions?

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I tend to agree with you Pitlamp on this issue, but how far does one take it? Do we all have to go back to fourteenth century spellings, as everything thereafter is a corruption?

<i>Whan that aprill with his shoures soote
The droghte of march hath perced to the roote,
And bathed every veyne in swich licour
Of which vertu engendred is the flour;</i>

Out of ignorance... can any old bloke get a permit from Ingleborough Estates... or do you have to prove insurance etc.?

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I think I'm right in saying that the CNCC handbook states that CNCC membership is an "advantage" for Ingleborough Estate Office caves. Not sure what that means though and I imagine it should really say "BCA membership" now.

The bottom of an Ingleborough Estate Office permit says "Please ensure your potholing insurance is up to date". I guess the onus is on you. Certainly they don't ask when you apply.

Loved your post above, Susie - and point taken!

There's no argument for always returning to 14th C spelling but in this case the incorrect "Ghyll" is only used by some people; many more use the correct version "Gill". In other words "Gill" is the correct present day spelling (which doesn't apply in the example you quoted!).

I have a huge amount of respect for Dave Elliott's knowledge of SRT matters - and his expertise in many other things to do with caving besides. However he would probably be the first to confirm that he's not an expert in English language, so you shouldn't regard his SRT book as an authority on spelling of cave names. The correct version is definitely "Gill".

I don't think Dr.Farrer is too bothered how you spell Gaping Gill when you drop him a line asking for a permit; quite reasonably he just wants to know what's going on within his estate. When you consider how helpful he has always been to cavers, for over 5 decades, I don't think it's too much to ask. (Many folk might not realise that he is supportive enough of cavers to have been elected an honorary member of at least two northern caving clubs - and he also goes out of his way to attend these clubs' functions from time to time.)

Pitlamp said:

sorry to be pedantic but it should be spelt Gaping Gill (not "Ghyll"). The latter spelling is generally regarded as a deliberate corruption probably initiated by William Wordsworth in order to embellish his writings.

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I had always understood William Wordsworth to be responsible, but just took it on trust. It would appear that the earliest use <b>was</b> by WW. in his poem "An Evening Walk Addressed to a Young Lady", written in 1787. This was written when he was 17 or 18, which probably explains why it's not a very good poem.

<i>Then, while I wandered where the huddling rill
Brightens with water-breaks the hollow ghyll</i>

From his own footnote, however, it would seem that it may have been a genuine mistake:

"<i>Ghyll is also, I believe, a term confined to this country: ghyll, and dingle, have the same meaning.</i>".

Thank you, Pitlamp, for providing me with the motivation to check it out!