Is Caving heading to becoming a Spectator Sport? 

Walk around the 3 Peaks, post a few pictures and pop down some quite good Caves.
Guess it might beat being up to your neck in freezing cold water with Sid Gazu for hours at a time but the point being not that long ago you would expect to find a team or two in front of you or blocking your exit in the Classic caves most weekends.

Where have all the cavers gone and more importantly why

Over the Hill said:

Where have all the cavers gone and more importantly why

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Perhaps caving has been driven underground  :

But on a serious note.
Perhaps it is because:-
There are many more caves to spread the traffic.
More cavers available to do midweek trips so not so busy at weekends.
Less university cavers.
Increase in number of cavers involved in digging and less into general caving.

I'm sure there are a wide variety of influencing factors.



Maj.

Maj said:

Less university cavers.

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Really? our numbers have stayed pretty steady over many years, now. And the impression I get from CHECC trip accounts is that quite a lot of caving goes on.

Well sadly the club I joined at University - Birmingham - BUSS is no longer and I hear Lancaster Uni caving club no longer exists and they used to introduce many, many freshers to caving 

I'm going to start a new thread.....

If 'Hidden Earth' is owt to go by, there are fewer cavers about full stop. I can remember the Conferences in the '80s and they seemed far better attended that the HEs I've been to in the last decade....all 2 of them.....

We can only really speak with authority from our own circumstances. The Wealden is twice the size it was, say, 20 years ago. Trips away are more frequent and are usually well-attended.

Over the Hill said:

...not that long ago you would expect to find a team or two in front of you or blocking your exit in the Classic caves most weekends.

Where have all the cavers gone and more importantly why

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The first time that I went to Giants Hole over 30 years ago it was midweek in November with a light dusting of snow and there were minibuses full of folk down there. I went last Friday about 10.00 am and apart from my mate and I there were only 4 guys in one car and no-one else had arrived when we left around 2.30 pm. So there does seem to be some substance to Over the Hill's comments.

I have been walking on Leck Fell on the last few weekends and some week days too.  I've seen very few cavers.  Some days none at all.

Over winter I visited Masongill Lane two or three times a week and nearly every sunday.  On many occasions there were no other cavers parked there despite the attractions of Ireby and Marble Steps.

On a number of trips to Kingsdale recently I have never had any difficulty parking.  Back in the 80's finding a parking spot was a big deal with it being rammed solid.

Figures for Birks Fell permits show a peak of 50-60 a year in the 80's.  Now it is down to single figures.

My feeling is that caving is on the decline as a recreational activity.  Cavers are an ageing population so overall figures for BCA, HE, clubs and the like might not be so bad at the moment, but I certainly think there are a lot less younger active cavers about.  As the old uns drop off the perch I expect caving to be in real trouble. 

This subject came up at a meeting I had today, funnily enough, where there was quite a lot of good will to see caving promoted in a better light.  There are still quite a few negative barriers to participation throughout the sport which need addressing and I would like to see a future where new cavers from all avenues of life are attracted to it. 

On Ukcaving the Dudley Caving Club have shown just how much fun caving can be and the Buttered Badgers how dynamic.  More of this would certainly help.

Quote "As the old uns drop off the perch I expect caving to be in real trouble". 

I would like to say something that is really profound. No idea what but lets give it go. Today my old rescue parrot (this is true) fell off his perch again. Usually (and he is very old) he sorts himself out, rolls over, dusts himself down and get back on with it. Not today though as intervention was required, a helping hand to turn him over, a lift back up and we are back to the Status Quo until?

Make of that what you want but watch out Buddha I am after your job. 

Peter makes an interesting point regarding the Wealden. I think it's mainly a Mining club. The Mine exploration club I'm in (Wirksworth) isn't struggling for mermbers.

So is it just caving clubs?

Our caving trips are usually well booked up too. This year, fully booked up at MNRC, good group at the Orpheus, busy weekends in Wales - admittedly the Orpheus weekend was for visiting mines!

droid said:

Peter makes an interesting point regarding the Wealden. I think it's mainly a Mining club. The Mine exploration club I'm in (Wirksworth) isn't struggling for mermbers.

So is it just caving clubs?

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Probably yes, because it's certainly not instructed caving that's showing any decline. Coaching and training and an upbeat philosophy of inclusivity, support/encouragement and progression may be the missing element in the club caving scene (perhaps more accurately a missing element in the clubs that are becoming derelict of vibrancy), many of which do seem to largely cater for people who are already cavers, rather than people trying to get started. If I was being jaded, it would be tempting to add that perhaps club members aren't really that bothered about declining subscriptions, provided that the long-standing members get to do whatever like they. Certainly a cursory check of committee positions in many clubs reveals a somewhat shocking complete non-existence of training or coaching officer positions. Why*?

* Tangential huge thread possibility.

Only been caving since the late 90s and even in that short space of time I've seen a difference. I too recall finding parking spots busier and the classic pots with quite often more than one group in them.
Not convinced more caves/entrances has anything to do with it (although it probably helps spread the load a little). Caver numbers have possibly declined but it's equally possible they have remained the same but people are less active or partake in other activities (climbing, mtbing etc..)

Plymouth Caving Group is thriving. On Tuesday evenings we are regularly running two and even, on occasion,  three trips to meet demand.  We tend to do a mix of caves and mines.

As a thought- do people think foot and mouth  has had a lasting impact?  During F&M a lot of people went off and did other things; I wonder how many didn't come back to caving.

tamarmole said:

As a thought- do people think foot and mouth  has had a lasting impact?  During F&M a lot of people went off and did other things; I wonder how many didn't come back to caving.

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I'd say yes, to me that is when things changed. It certainly had an impact, although if you were savvy and determined enough you could still get plenty of underground action!

I think the reason for the falling numbers of cavers is pretty plain to see. When I began caving in the early 1960s the sport of "Potholing" had a great mystique and danger about it. My peers regarded me as quite bonkers but terribly brave. If you fancied a dangerous sport then, it was really only down to climbing and caving - diving was very expensive, overseas adventuring beyond the reach of most of us. There's now an explosion of exciting outdoor pursuits - windsurfing, jetskiing, hang-gliding, microlights, plus all the other upteen leisure interests that occupy our increased leisure time.

Let's face it, despite the good press caving's received in recent years, it's slipped from being the glamourous, dangerous activity of heroes to that of some nutters grovelling about in muddy holes. Personally, I've always found the "down the pub, get p*ssed" image of caving rather offputting, and youngsters nowadays don't feel so compelled to make it out in time for the pub.

Caving's great fun, wonderfully interesting, and pretty unbeatable for making great friendships. I think caving clubs need to have a real good look at themselves, specifically with how best to recruit new young blood into their ranks, and maybe ditch some of the old ways they've fallen into.

tamarmole said:

As a thought- do people think foot and mouth  has had a lasting impact?  During F&M a lot of people went off and did other things; I wonder how many didn't come back to caving.

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The previous owner of Inglesport always used to say that caver numbers in his shop and cafe never fully recovered post F&M.

The Birks Fell permit stats show a drop of about 50% post 2001.

So I think your suggestion is probably right.

Badlad said:

tamarmole said:

As a thought- do people think foot and mouth  has had a lasting impact?  During F&M a lot of people went off and did other things; I wonder how many didn't come back to caving.

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The previous owner of Inglesport always used to say that caver numbers in his shop and cafe never fully recovered post F&M.

The Birks Fell permit stats show a drop of about 50% post 2001.

So I think your suggestion is probably right.

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I agree, and I'm not so sure there's any simple answer. And as Tony says there's a much wider choice of affordable exciting activities attracting people than twenty or thirty years ago.

Tony makes a very valid point, and it might explain why the mining clubs aren't (apparrently) suffering the same malaise: mine exploration, involving as it does rotten floors, tons of rubble, muddy digging and the occasional absolutely breathtaking 'scenery' is still regarded as nutter territory.

Perhaps that's part of the attraction of digging?