Ian Adams
Active member
A question of cave leadership ?
An interesting problem arose the other day outside a cave which gave rise to some (I think) pretty awkward questions ?.
A small contingent of our club had gone through the calf hole system (grade 2) with a view to assessing it for novice trips and, having gone through and arriving back at the entrance (which you pass to return to your car) found another group about to enter.
This group was made up of some first timers and a clearly experienced caver who was busy double-rigging the entrance pitch (there was another party in the system).
He asked if he could use the existing rigging but it was not ours and we explained there was another party in the system (that we had met) and who was coming back out the same way. He indicated that he was doing the through trip and asked if the second pitch was already rigged. We explained that the other party was at the 2nd pitch when we had come out but that there was a diversion around it that did not need rigging if he would rather not take his kit in.
He then placed an onus on us by asking us to make a decision for him based on the fact he had first-timers with him who were being lowered down the first pitch and who may or may not be frightened by the ?letterbox? which could prove awkward to return through if he could not find the diversion or if the 2nd pitch had been de-rigged. His question was should he or should he not take his kit in and should he or should he not continue to double-rig to account for his novices wanting to return early.
We declined to make a ?decision? and suggested he must make his own judgement call based on what he knew at that time (which I think was the right decision but please do advise to the contrary if we acted improperly).
This then lead us to think about leadership in caving groups and parties when in a system in that;
Is there a legally responsible person in a caving group/party even if there is no designated leader ?
If so, what parameters define that person ?
If a 3rd party then provides information/instructions which a responsible person then follows, is the 3rd party accountable/liable if an incident occurs thereafter ?
Also, has there been any incidents where a person in a group has been held accountable where they had not assumed responsibility beforehand?
Lastly, is the same true of mines ?
Any advice would be very welcome.
Thanks
Ian
An interesting problem arose the other day outside a cave which gave rise to some (I think) pretty awkward questions ?.
A small contingent of our club had gone through the calf hole system (grade 2) with a view to assessing it for novice trips and, having gone through and arriving back at the entrance (which you pass to return to your car) found another group about to enter.
This group was made up of some first timers and a clearly experienced caver who was busy double-rigging the entrance pitch (there was another party in the system).
He asked if he could use the existing rigging but it was not ours and we explained there was another party in the system (that we had met) and who was coming back out the same way. He indicated that he was doing the through trip and asked if the second pitch was already rigged. We explained that the other party was at the 2nd pitch when we had come out but that there was a diversion around it that did not need rigging if he would rather not take his kit in.
He then placed an onus on us by asking us to make a decision for him based on the fact he had first-timers with him who were being lowered down the first pitch and who may or may not be frightened by the ?letterbox? which could prove awkward to return through if he could not find the diversion or if the 2nd pitch had been de-rigged. His question was should he or should he not take his kit in and should he or should he not continue to double-rig to account for his novices wanting to return early.
We declined to make a ?decision? and suggested he must make his own judgement call based on what he knew at that time (which I think was the right decision but please do advise to the contrary if we acted improperly).
This then lead us to think about leadership in caving groups and parties when in a system in that;
Is there a legally responsible person in a caving group/party even if there is no designated leader ?
If so, what parameters define that person ?
If a 3rd party then provides information/instructions which a responsible person then follows, is the 3rd party accountable/liable if an incident occurs thereafter ?
Also, has there been any incidents where a person in a group has been held accountable where they had not assumed responsibility beforehand?
Lastly, is the same true of mines ?
Any advice would be very welcome.
Thanks
Ian