water icicle, suitable for a novice to srt?

ditzy 24//7

Active member
i have a friend coming up to stay for a week and i am going to be teaching her srt, she has some experiance in caving but not a lot. i did water icicle as my first srt trip and thought it would be a nice easy trip for her to do as there is no need for rebelays or deviations and is also the sort of size suitable for hauling her up if she struggles too much, she will be using a fig of 8 but will also be on a belay for extra safety/confidence
any opinions?
 

graham

New member
I am unhappy about the combination of additional belay and fig 8. Personally I've never liked the concept of belaying abseilers anyway as two ropes twisting together becomes a complete nightmare. This tendency is exacerbated using a fig 8 which itself imparts twist to the system.
 

ditzy 24//7

Active member
we were thinking of getting her to use a fig of 8 becuase with a stop if she panics we only have the option of lifting her up but with a fig of 8 we could potentually lower her.
she hasnt got a lot of experiance with abseiling either, would you say it is better for her not to be on a belay?

the rope that is being used to abseil shouldnt twist much either because we are not putting any rebelays in or a deviation, were going to do it as a straight down shaft.

nevr know tho we may even meet the ghost  ;)
 
A

andymorgan

Guest
Wouldn't it be best to teach her on the surface first? You could use a bridge or tree  :)
 

ditzy 24//7

Active member
heya andymorgan
i should have been more specific
i am going to be teaching her in the house first. its going to be nmore like her first proper srt trip underground. we will be using the loft to teach her, we were also thinking of takeing her to the giants pitch to give her a taster of underground pitches and srt but the main target will be to do water icicle. she as done the pitch in valley entrenc before aswell, but bri pulled her back up on the return, its more the ability she will have  to prossik back out im more concerned about, rather than the abseiling factor but obviously there are questions to think about like what is the best abseiling tool to use and should a belay be used?
 

ditzy 24//7

Active member
it is indeed a great trip, i did it on my first srt trip, that was why i was thinking it may be a good one to take my frined on as she has no knoledge of srt yet but she will soon. it does tend to get most people out of breath just a bit!
i exspect you didnt manage to do it in one tho.
i had to stop a few times as far as i csn remember.
its also a great place to much around and make ghost pictures  ;)
 

mudmonkey

New member
Any short pitch without much water should be OK. I quite like Garland's - it's only 8m rather than 30, the rope can be rigged above you, there's a ledge to talk to people on whilst they sort themselves out. The pitch down from the upper series is also pretty good (only have to go down!) though the top is a little confined. If you think a panicky wibble-fest may happen, a shaft where you have pace to put another rope/ladder may also be better.....

A Stop can be un-Stopped by putting a krab through the hole which appears when you press the handle in - at that point your friend has a standard caving descender with no autolock (or just lend her a rack) - 8's aren't standard for caving so it's probably better to learn on something else.

Suicide Cave also has lots of bolts in for just this sort of thing - but the cave itself is dull!

Hope that helps - enjoy your trip
 

ditzy 24//7

Active member
hello mud mkey thanks for the suggestions

giants is indeed a great place for srt and also practicing, aslong as the wether isnt too bad if the pitch is very wet it would make it hard for a novice, it all depends on what the pitch is like on the day, i am aware that it can be rigged thurther out but it also means you need more skills that a novice simply wouldnt have. suicide cave could be an option but from what i heave herad of it, it doesnt sound like a nice place, i havent actually been in there myself.
i hadnt thought about putting a krab through a stop.
i dont own a rack that was why i was thinking of getting her to use a fig of 8 but a stop could be a possiblility using a krab.
does anyone have any suggestions of any other places we could potentually use to practice srt and generally to have fun underground at the same time?
 

paul

Moderator
Regarding Water Icicle Close Cavern: This is a 32 metre shaft and narrow enough to make getting past another person on the rope very difficult. And I agree with Graham on the possible problems with using a separate lifeline  Even if your friend manages to abseil down to the bottom (and it is a straight-forward pitch to abseil down), have you you a "Plan B" if they find the ascent too difficult? As you said "but bri pulled her back up on the return, its more the ability she will have to prossik back out im more concerned about".

I would follow the other suggestions: try a shorter pitch first where you can see what's going on and can also provide assistance if necessary. Then you can always try longer pitches later.
 

ditzy 24//7

Active member
the plan B is to rig a pulley system or something like that (i dont know how to do this but brains does and he will be going up first ) if she struggles, but i agree that trying a few smaller pitches first would be a better idea. i will be able to assist her below but yes getting past her would be dificault in a confined place. we also have walkey talkies that should work on the shaft, wich will also make comunication a lot easyr aswell.
 

damian

Active member
Rather than lifelining the abseil (which, as graham says, can be awkward as ropes can twist quite easily) I would recommend holding the spare rope at the top of the pitch and feeding it out as she abseils so that there is always a small loop beneath her, but no more. Then, should she loose control, she will be brought quickly back under control by you holding onto the rope. You don't need anything fancy for this .. just bare hands (honest!)

Obviously you will need a rope twice the length of the pitch for this though ... and dont' drop it down at the end until she's out of the way!
 

Pete K

Well-known member
Either that or standing below and holding the tail of the rope. Just pull to stop, but it does need the puller to be very switched on and paying attention. Only need normal ammount of rope then.

In good weather, a combination of the Flats & Boney pitches + Idiots Leap in P8 can be a nice little intro. Straightforward SRT in a descent system. Easy to help out as well.

Pete
 

Hammy

Member
I'd agree with the comments about the 32m being a bit long for a first prussik and the rather confined nature of the shaft. Communication is often a bit muffled in places like that and walky talkies might be considered to give a false sense of security! It is more useful to be actually able to see what is going on.

How about some good robust training in how to use a Stop (and how to misuse it!) on the surface, then having a bottom-puller on the main event!

I'd be even more concerned about the fact that bad air has been reported in Water icicle. Has this problem been resolved?

I've only been down there once and it was about 10 years ago so my knowledge of the place is limited.
 

ditzy 24//7

Active member
hello hammy

i wasnt aware there was/has been a problem of bad air down water icicle, i went down there about  a year ago and encountered no problems, doing some stuf on the surfce first sounds like agood idea tho.
does anybody know if the bad air has been resolved?
 
B

Bouncing Bom

Guest
I believe it still has a problem with bad air, I have a few friends who have done it recently and are going to do it again this week and they certainly didn't recommend it for me as a novice even though I have done some srt
Bom
 

ditzy 24//7

Active member
thanks for the info, i wont do water icicle with my friend when she comes up, becuase of bad air, she wouldnt be able to get out quickly as she doesnt even know srt at all yet, she has never done it, tho she will know it within a few days i dont think it would be wise to take her down if there is bad air down there, i may think about taking her down the knotlow/hillox complex for her if she is keen on doing a big shaft like water icicle, afterall i can always take her down there in the meer futuer, there is no point rushing things if there is a health risk.
thanks
 

paul

Moderator
ditzy said:
hello hammy

i wasnt aware there was/has been a problem of bad air down water icicle, i went down there about  a year ago and encountered no problems, doing some stuf on the surfce first sounds like agood idea tho.
does anybody know if the bad air has been resolved?

There's been a notice on the lid warning of the POSSIBILITY of CO2 for several years now...

Usually there's no problem - but if you do notice the usual symptoms (breathlessness, lethargy, possibly headache and/or nausea) - leave immediately.

Strangely enough, those digging on NW Passage have noticed difficulties in getting a cigarette lighter to light (a simple and easy test for elevated CO2 levels) on a day with a noticeable draught at the end of the passage. The lighter wouldn't light in the shaft either - but did on the surface. Holding the lighter in the shaft while at the surface and, again, it wouldn't light...

Anyway, it's not usually a problem, just something to be aware of. And as for resolution, well, there's no chance of that unless: A) The source is found (and who knows where or what that is) and B) anything could be done about the source.
 

shotlighter

Active member
A second shaft would no doubt help - it's under the plantation of trees to the right of the shaft as you approach it & about 50yds to the left of the gate in the plantation.
Wether the estate or Natural England would allow it to be  reopened remains to be seen though.
The other problem is of course getting someone to do the work (if agreed) rather than just moaning it's not been done.
 

Speleokitty

New member
Might I suggest the shaft on Jug Holes Adit as a suitable venue for simple SRT training and using a bottom belay.

Its only half the depth of Water Icicle, well ventilated and you can easily talk with the trainee from top or bottom.  Heck you can even walk to the bottom and have quite an interesting trip too.

Kitty

 
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