Radon in Giants

pwhole

Well-known member
benshannon said:
I'm keen and I've asked Ryan.
Stupid question though. How many trips in giants is safe? I've done 2 recently so I'm aware of the radon issues. Or am I being paranoid?

No, you're not being paranoid. Rumour has it the levels get much lower after summer, and winter is pretty much 'ok'. High summer is pretty bad.
 

Pete K

Well-known member
benshannon said:
I'm keen and I've asked Ryan.
Stupid question though. How many trips in giants is safe? I've done 2 recently so I'm aware of the radon issues. Or am I being paranoid?
It's huge, especially when there are deep low pressure systems about. As it gets colder it'll drop off. Mid summer it is one of the highest radon concentrations for any cave in the county. As for risk, well that depends on how much caving you do in other high radon environments.
For work, I would be limiting myself to 1 descent length trip a month in the summer and a couple a month at other times of the year.
There is some info on the BCA website here: https://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/doku.php?id=publications_information:radon&s[]=radon
If you're really interested, I can dig out the actual figures collected over the last few years. For a very rough comparison, the 'safe' level (no action needed) for an office is under 300 Bqm-3, Giant's gets up to something like 50000 Bqm-3. You would spend 5 x 8 hours in that office though, and not that much time in Giant's, so the it's not quite as bad as the figures might show.
 

alastairgott

Well-known member
Pete K said:
There is some info on the BCA website here: https://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/doku.php?id=publications_information:radon&s[]=radon

There's some heavy stuff on there pete! especially on the doc that it attaches, where it seems Ben could do his homework or decide his dog ate his homework and he'll go to giants anyway :s

https://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=publications_information:radon_underground_3rd_edition.pdf Heavy stuff starts from pg 49...
 

2xw

Active member
It's also worth reading the section about context on page ten which says on any trip the risk of death on a given trip is 5x more than the extra risk of lung cancer you attribute to yourself
 

Pete K

Well-known member
Fatman said:
Are there any specfic parts of the cave known to have higher concentrations of radon?
All of it below the entrance  :)
Below the basalt beds in Basecamp Chamber and off with the water down the Crabwalk. Highest recorded reading was (I think) at the Eating House. It has only been monitored in very limited spots due to the time and cost involved. Figures from 1989/90 can be found in a thesis by Rob Hyland with a bit of Googleing, and PICA*/BCA has conducted some work in the area above Garlands Pot which also confirm the 1989/90 readings.

*Peak Instructed Caving Affiliation
 

tdobson

Member
Pete K said:
All of it below the entrance  :)

So I had a good "jolly" doing my homework on the BCA reports on Radon, and so I can see that Peak has the most, and given the stats, I can see why the old guard happily ignore it, because it's so much easier.

The thing I find interesting is:
1) Bagshawe, Carlswark, Giants - all the "inspiring" newb caves that PICA (and my club!) might take people in are Radon-tastic. I'm in Bagshawe a lot, and hahahahahahhahahah Radon hahahahha yes it's a lot of Radon
2) I've heard people complain about Radon exposure in Giants, but the fact other caves are worse is really surprising to me. They're Peak District caves I visit more!
3) I can see why Mouldridge appeals so much to PICA etc ;)

Y'all gonna do what you wanna do, so I'm not going to tell anyone what risks to or to not accept, but yeah - it's definitely an interesting one. For me who has done ~5-10 Bagshawe trips this year more than people doing one off trips!

Eager to try and focus on the engineering works in this thread - but I know that's like pouring petrol on a candle and telling it not to burn.

p.s. mods - if you wanna split the thread into sumps and radon, feel free :)
 

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pwhole

Well-known member
I'm told that the Matlock area is particularly low in radon, despite the abundance of lava in that area - it's possible the lower lavas trap any rising radon and force it eastwards under the shale, but I'm no expert. But you can do regular visits in that area with few issues. I think the shale boundary is ironically part of the problem in Castleton - that and uranium. I'm sure I read somewhere once that boreholes had been drilled around the Mam Tor/Odin Rake area testing for it, but I've never managed to find it again. Not the kind of thing I'd dream up, but no joy. But I gather that Odin Rake is a particularly deep fault and may go all the way to the base of the limestone, which is quite a long way. Windy Knoll also has elaterite (bitumen) deposits in the rock, and it is sticky, just like tar. So that must be coming upwards from somewhere. Giants, particularly the deeper sections, isn't that far away really.
 

bograt

Active member
A comparison of shale types could shed some light on the anomaly, Matlock is closer to a coal shale whereas Castleton is a gritstone shale?--
 

mikem

Well-known member
I don't think they were drilling for uranium, but in 2006, C.Abesser published an article called "uranium concentrations in the groundwater of the Derbyshire dome", which references results from mines, soughs & boreholes.

This may come in useful (you could live in Cornwall):
https://www.ukradon.org/information/ukmaps

& an explanation of why levels vary (in US):
https://certmapper.cr.usgs.gov/data/PubArchives/radon/georadon/3.html
 

pwhole

Well-known member
Checking the BGS borehole logs show that most of the boreholes around there were for investigating the Mam Tor landslip, but I don't know how far back the records go. There is one, however, between the lower Odin engine shaft and Knowlegates Farm which is marked 'Confidential'. Trevor Ford does mention uranium in the geology section of the PDMHS special Bulletin on Odin in 1976 - I need to re-read that.
 

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pwhole

Well-known member

Bob Mehew

Well-known member
Has anyoone else had problems with downloading the 2nd reference by PWhole?

I did wonder about the contribution to radon emanations from sediments washed into caves.  BGS has some data in their G-BASE data set via http://mapapps2.bgs.ac.uk/geoindex/home.html but I failed to gain access into it.

Rob Hyland's thesis is at http://eprints.hud.ac.uk/id/eprint/4839/1/DX193594.pdf.  Giant's holds the world record though I amnot certain if anyone has done a recent literature search to confirm that.
 

pwhole

Well-known member
The doc seems to load every time for me.

It's an interesting one as I hadn't really considered the source materials being washed into the cave to then percolate back upstream - possibly as Giants has a large permanent sump, with a lot of airspace (but not much circulation) above it?
 

AR

Well-known member
I'm having trouble with the Manchester paper too - it gets about 2/3 through the download then just stops.
 

tdobson

Member
Thanks Pwhole for the split!

The 1995 Huddersfield paper is bedtime reading for a good fornight! Thanks for that.

I have a (temporary) mirror of "the manchester paper" for anyone who's particularly interested. It's only a temporary link so it won't work 2-3 days from now, but I can re-enable it.

https://cloud-files-4-me.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/Downloads/FULL_TEXT.PDF

 
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