ITV News tonight 16th November

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Andy Sparrow

Active member
Had a call from ITV today because they wanted to do a feature about caving after Monday's accident. I spent an hour or so in Goatchurch with them trying my best to promote a positive message. You can judge for yourselves if this was achieved - barring any major breaking stories it should fill a two minute slot in the main evening bulletin at 6.30 BTW the group I appear to be leading were actually nothing to do with me - they just happened to be there at the time.
 
F

Frog

Guest
saw the piece on the news. i thought it portrayed a very good picture of caving and all the kids on it seemed to be having fun.
even the reporter looked to be having a good time.
well done Andy.
 
Stu

Stu

Active member
graham said:
Fair play, Andy. That came over quite well, despite the heavily biased lead in beforehand.
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IMHO I thought it was heavy handed but not biased. It gave the fullest (though not necessarily the truest) picture of what may have happened I've seen/read.
 
J

Jagman

New member
I thoought your contribution was the only remotely positive part of the article Andy. The report itself seamed to condemn the trip leader before any information has really emerged.
As usual the report was based almost entirely on speculation and portrayed caving in a very negative fashion, inevitable I suppose
 
Stu

Stu

Active member
Jagman said:
I thoought your contribution was the only remotely positive part of the article Andy. The report itself seamed to condemn the trip leader before any information has really emerged.
As usual the report was based almost entirely on speculation and portrayed caving in a very negative fashion, inevitable I suppose
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They raised lots of questions. I repeat, I thought it was clumpy and all very dramatic but not biased. What was said that makes you draw this conclusion?
 
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Andy Sparrow

Active member
I don't the think the feature about the accident was bad or biased by media standards. The reporter I took to Goatchurch specifically wanted to present caving in a positive way - refreshingly rare for the media under any circumstances, especially two days after a high profile fatality.
 
graham

graham

New member
Andy Sparrow said:
I don't the think the feature about the accident was bad or biased by media standards. The reporter I took to Goatchurch specifically wanted to present caving in a positive way - refreshingly rare for the media under any circumstances, especially two days after a high profile fatality.
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I agree, by media standards it wasn't! But that, I think most of us would agree isn't saying much! I'd be fascinated to know quite why the reporter took such a positive view.

Any ideas?
 
A

Andy Sparrow

Active member
graham said:
I'd be fascinated to know quite why the reporter took such a positive view.

Any ideas?
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Ostensibly because she was seeking journalistic balance against the negative effects of the accident. But I suspect she a person who has limited sympathy with over protective parenting which restricts the development of children. It was her first caving trip but she enjoyed it very much and it may not be her last.
 
J

Jagman

New member
I thought the on scene part of the report from Manchester Hole to be overdramatised with the reporter raising questions that ought to be left to the coroner to raise and get answers too.
The underground section was in contrast well balanced and not as sensational.
Having seen the knock on effects of previous incedents with school children I fear more of the same.
Perhaps I am excessively cynical when it comes to the media coverage of this type of event.
There is no doubt something went badly wrong on this trip but exactly what is for the Coroners Court to decide and not for the media to speculate on. Only then will similar tragedies be avoided in the future
 
Stu

Stu

Active member
Jagman said:
There is no doubt something went badly wrong on this trip but exactly what is for the Coroners Court to decide and not for the media to speculate on. Only then will similar tragedies be avoided in the future
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We don't know something went badly wrong. This too is speculative. The death is a tragic but by claiming what you do, are you not in effect doing what you accuse the media of doing?
 
J

Jagman

New member
stu said:
Jagman said:
There is no doubt something went badly wrong on this trip but exactly what is for the Coroners Court to decide and not for the media to speculate on. Only then will similar tragedies be avoided in the future
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We don't know something went badly wrong. This too is speculative. The death is a tragic but by claiming what you do, are you not in effect doing what you accuse the media of doing?
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Something going badly wrong simply refers to the fact that somebody died Stu, no speculation as to reasons or causes. I have drawn no conclusions and suggested no blame. Mere statement of fact

In addition I'll drop the discussion as its probably in-appropriate at this time and dont wish to create an issue
 
Stu

Stu

Active member
Jagman said:
stu said:
Jagman said:
There is no doubt something went badly wrong on this trip but exactly what is for the Coroners Court to decide and not for the media to speculate on. Only then will similar tragedies be avoided in the future
Click to expand...

We don't know something went badly wrong. This too is speculative. The death is a tragic but by claiming what you do, are you not in effect doing what you accuse the media of doing?
Click to expand...

Something going badly wrong simply refers to the fact that somebody died Stu, no speculation as to reasons or causes. I have drawn no conclusions and suggested no blame. Mere statement of fact

In addition I'll drop the discussion as its probably in-appropriate at this time and dont wish to create an issue
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Apologies. Confusion sorted.
 
Stupot

Stupot

Active member
Well done Andy, good report (it was taped for me), you portrayed the sport in a very professional manner.

Stu.
 
kay

kay

Well-known member
I thought the point was very well made that safety procedures are not always evident to those taking part - that there's a lot more in place than can be seen by the participant.

The Yorks local ITV news beforehand did the usual talking to people in the street to get their views, and, while a couple said they'd had to think long and hard, the view emerged that people were still supportive of school trips. A local headmaster was interviewed and he gave the same view. Maybe Andy's reporter has her finger on the pulse and realises that people are beginning to understand that you can't totally eliminate risk?

None of this lessens the tragedy of this case, and my sympathy goes to all involved, and particularly the parents.
 
cap n chris

cap n chris

Well-known member
for the Coroners Court to decide and not for the media to speculate on. Only then will similar tragedies be avoided in the future
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"Only then will similar tragedies be avoided in the future...."

...Not so in my experience, having recently tried to find out background details of a caving incident (2001) from Coroners' Offices, writing to five different addresses - each passing me to the next - despite me providing the reference no., date and names of the deceased, only to be finally directed back to the first Coroner who wrote to say that the details of what went wrong, how, by whom, the experience of those concerned, any qualifications etc. etc. were confidential; the verdict is all we are able find out from these tragedies - the valuable background information from which other people can learn and thereby use to the advantage of others by avoiding similar mistakes is lost or unavailable. Knowing someone died from misadventure is insufficient to enable us to learn from the mistakes of others, thereby minimising the likelihood of such things occurring again in future.
 
graham

graham

New member
I think (I may be wrong) that as well as the verdict, recommendations made by the Coroner will be made public - if any such are in fact made.

It would seem from Chris's experience that if the caving community is to learn anything from this tragedy then it will have to mount its own internal enquiry.

Now, I do not know the legal situation, here, as far as any conflict with enquiries carried out by the police or by the local authority are concerned, but, given that caving qualifications are issued by the BCA, I would say that we (we are all members of BCA after all - if we are insured that is) are morally obliged to examine our recommendations and qualifications in the light of what may have happened here in order to see what improvements might be made.
 
A

Andy Sparrow

Active member
graham said:
Now, I do not know the legal situation, here, as far as any conflict with enquiries carried out by the police or by the local authority are concerned, but, given that caving qualifications are issued by the BCA, I would say that we (we are all members of BCA after all - if we are insured that is) are morally obliged to examine our recommendations and qualifications in the light of what may have happened here in order to see what improvements might be made.
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Centres are NOT required by law to use qualified instructors. The Adventure Activities Licensing Authority (AALA) will accept a written statement of competence from a suitably qualified person - in this case any CIC holder. There is a long running debate as to whether these 'site specific' awards are adequate as they do not have the more rigorous checks and balances of the LCMLA scheme. We will, no doubt, discover the qualification status of the instructor involved in Monday's accident in due course.
 
graham

graham

New member
Andy Sparrow said:
graham said:
Now, I do not know the legal situation, here, as far as any conflict with enquiries carried out by the police or by the local authority are concerned, but, given that caving qualifications are issued by the BCA, I would say that we (we are all members of BCA after all - if we are insured that is) are morally obliged to examine our recommendations and qualifications in the light of what may have happened here in order to see what improvements might be made.
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Centres are NOT required by law to use qualified instructors. The Adventure Activities Licensing Authority (AALA) will accept a written statement of competence from a suitably qualified person - in this case any CIC holder. There is a long running debate as to whether these 'site specific' awards are adequate as they do not have the more rigorous checks and balances of the LCMLA scheme. We will, no doubt, discover the qualification status of the instructor involved in Monday's accident in due course.
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Thank you. I would point out that this still brings a centre under the umbrella of the BCA as CIC is a BCA qualification.

Is there anything in the CIC literature that specifically mandates holders to issue such statements of competence?

Please note that I am not trying to stir the shit here, simply to elucidate some background information.
 
A

Andy Sparrow

Active member
graham said:
Thank you. I would point out that this still brings a centre under the umbrella of the BCA as CIC is a BCA qualification.

Is there anything in the CIC literature that specifically mandates holders to issue such statements of competence?

Please note that I am not trying to stir the shit here, simply to elucidate some background information.
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From the BCA perspective simply holding a CIC does not equate to the status of a trainer assessor. For the holder to become a trainer/assessor the BCA requires a strict program of apprenticeship. It is AALA who have taken the view that a CIC holder is automatically a suitable person to 'qualify' cave leaders. I think in these circumstances the centre cannot really be said to be under the 'BCA umbrella'. I'm not aware that NCA/BCA have ever communicated a view on this to CIC holders.
 
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