Hand-drawn maps

Kenilworth

New member
I haven't yet read the entire forum, but having browsed the survey section and searched in general, I see no mention of hand-drawn cave maps. The state of survey in the UK seems to be generally more advanced than that in the US. I'm interested in the reasons.

Here in the US, there are still a few people, myself included, who hand-draft maps. While it is seen as somewhat backward, I maintain that all of the practical considerations are equally met by pen and ink or computer-drawn maps. In fact, I feel that there is a measure of artistry that is lost with the abandonment of direct tactile drawing. It seems though, that the trend is to make maps appear more and more professional, which results in their being more sterile and uniform.

I am not questioning the value of computer drawn maps, especially when the computer-viewed results provide superior clarity as in the case of large, complex, multi-layered maps. I am questioning our eagerness (in the US) and the seeming completeness (in the UK) of the abandonment of drawing maps by hand. I personally enjoy the process, though I lack any artistic predisposition.

I have guessed that there may be relatively little new exploration ongoing in the UK, and that original surveying projects are less common than here in the US where many secluded caves provide plentiful opportunities for original discovery. Could that be part of the reason you have "progressed" in your survey sophistication? In short, because there's nothing better to do? Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm trying to understand the differences in our caving culture. I've been writing for a while about the disconnection between our motivations and behaviors, and the way this disconnection is impacting the number of active cavers. Some input from another angle will surely teach me something...

 

martinm

New member
Kenilworth said:
I have guessed that there may be relatively little new exploration ongoing in the UK, and that original surveying projects are less common than here in the US where many secluded caves provide plentiful opportunities for original discovery.

Rubbish, there is plenty of new exploration ongoing in the UK, we also draw Hand-drawn maps, they're called sketches and as we are often trying to link them up with other caves, we then do them more accurately with proper instruments! That is completely necessary.
 

graham

New member
In complete contradiction to what you are saying, Kenilworth, one of the major reasons for our adopting computer programs such as Therionand Tunnel to output our survey drawings is that exploration is still ongoing and maps and plans can be added to and updated without having to completely re-draw them by hand when extensions are made and hitherto unknown links are forged.

A hand-drawn survey can only be a snapshot in time and will be left far behind as new discoveries are made. A Therion project will remain as up to date as the survey data underlying it.
 

cavermark

New member
Surveying is a blend of the mathematical and a bit of artistic skill, similar to technical engineering drawings I think.  Surveys that aren't drawn to scale aren't very useful once a cave gains any length. I would say that such a survey without any measurements is really a "picture", in the "cave art" genre. If you are just talking about the sketching of passage detail around the measured centerline "skeleton", then this was traditional done with pencil and paper in the cave, then pen and ink on the final copy back home. People with some artistic skills are usually better at this. Computer software is still useful to crunch the numbers (every "leg" has a distance, compass bearing and inclination to be worked out with trigonometry onto the plan). Modern "paperless" digital surveying techniques are where leg measurements are taken with a laser disto and transmitted to a PDA. The centerline is drawn on the PDA screen (with cross section measurements) allowing the dots to be drawn around for the passage walls with a stylus.  These methods also massively reduce the errors  associated with "by-hand" methods. The final version of the survey passage detail can still be done "by hand" on a print out, but more commonly by computer mouse in specific software like Therion, or general drawing packages like Adobe Illustrator, Inkscape etc.  Opinions are still divided over what looks best and which process people prefer. Computerised methods can be quicker in the long run (eg. adding newly discovered passages doesn't require a total redraw of the overall survey).
 

Simon Wilson

New member
mmilner said:
Kenilworth said:
I have guessed that there may be relatively little new exploration ongoing in the UK, and that original surveying projects are less common than here in the US where many secluded caves provide plentiful opportunities for original discovery.

Rubbish, there is plenty of new exploration ongoing in the UK, we also draw Hand-drawn maps, they're called sketches and as we are often trying to link them up with other caves, we then do them more accurately with proper instruments! That is completely necessary.

Kenilworth, thank you for your thought provoking post. You are obviously quite correct when you say that there is relatively little new exploration ongoing in the UK. There are also a relatively large proportion of armchair cavers. That may be one of the contributing factors in the greater use of computers for drawing cave surveys and it may be the most important factor. I will look forward to reading more informed opinion.

Mel, would you like to think about what you wrote, especially the use of the word 'rubbish' in reply to someone who is making a well considered and useful post.
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
I think there's arguably more new exploration going on the UK now than ever before, largely down to the demographics combined with lithium power sources. Use of lasers and PDAs for surveying has significant advantages over paper and pen, which is why the former has trounced the latter. Another reason is mud.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8nVwUAtDLQ&list=UU1vxW4W52BkwV5OybJ-6gbg

We can also show the public what caves "look" like by using 3D rendering techniques.
http://cave-registry.org.uk/images/stories/TFD.webm

It's what you'd expect in the C21st.
 

Bottlebank

New member
I'd agree with Chris, drill power alone (well almost alone) has meant we are making lots of discoveries here where they wouldn't have been possible twenty or thirty years ago. I suspect another reason is that UK cavers are heavily involved in extensive explorations abroad, and have brought the skills needed there to finds here.

It's also quite possible that it's easier here to adopt some of the more complicated technology involved, just as geographically UK cavers are much closer to the nearest hole than cavers in the US they are probably much closer to someone who can show them how to use Therion, for example.

Overall I suspect if US cavers are "behind" on this it's simply because they haven't caught up yet, I'm sure they will.

 
A friend of mine maintains a hand drawn survey of our local system, this has been compiled over the years from historical data and new stuff that he and various other people have gained over quite a long period of time. The system is quite liner and as such the survey is about 1800mm long by 600mm high it also details many surface features such as dry river bed, farms etc.
When we find anything new down it comes off the wall and it is updated by hand. New finds are now surveyed with a Disto and although the data is now also going into Therion we like to update the hand drawn map. We know that there are lots of inaccuracy's on the map mainly due to old data being wrong but that can be corrected over time by resurveying with the Disto.
The point I am trying to make is this particular map really is a historical record, it contains notes from years ago, rubbings out and all manor of other little thing that make it special. It is a beautiful work of art in itself, you could spend hours stood in front of it just looking. It's nowhere near as good a "survey" as the Therion stuff will be but it's light years better than any digital output to look at.
I am desperate for a copy myself but the trouble is it will never be finished, and I also have the small problem of not having a wall big enough.

   
 

SamT

Moderator
What will happen when you get a loop closure error, re survey and find your dodgy legs, then realise that everything needs pulling around to the left slightly..

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Peter Burgess

New member
I work in a halfway house, using CAD software, but processing the survey data manually, or using the CAD functions to align legs etc to the correct orientations. As the surveys are plans of a 2D system (old quarry workings) this is not difficult. As Sam says, realigning stuff later found to be wrong is no big deal, even the way I do it.
 

Simon Wilson

New member
The problem that I have is that it is not often that I need to survey a passage or draw a survey and it isn't worth the considerable effort in learning how to use the software. I have looked at the software and it is all extremely difficult to learn how to use.

I have heard of people getting CAD software for free but have searched for it and not found it. The CAD software that is available is very expensive to buy.

I was grateful when Becka Lawson surveyed our Boxhead dig and added it to the Leck Fell 3D. It would be useful to see the extension surveyed and added but it isn't going to happen.

It's yet another example of IT creating barriers and excluding people.
 

AR

Well-known member
In a somewhat similar vein to Simon, drawing up surveys is not something I do on a regular basis and although I could teach myself to use  software, since my survey data will be on paper to begin with I've found it quicker to date to stick with  drawing onto draughtsman's film, and inking up when I'm happy. I'm sure there will come a time when I do decide it'll be worth investing the time to go paperless but it hasn't come for me yet
 
The problem that I have is that it is not often that I need to survey a passage or draw a survey and it isn't worth the considerable effort in learning how to use the software. I have looked at the software and it is all extremely difficult to learn how to use.
Your right about the effort Simon and also about the difficulty learning the software. It's my opinion that people end up doing this on their own which is probably why so many give up. We should get organized and have local sessions on various software where we can share any knowledge that might be around.
I'll start the ball rolling.
I'm in Keighley, 10 months into Disto/Pocket Topo Therion, have a training room available at work. Two mates with similar experience but we are all struggling a bit with Therion. Anybody want to join us, no experience necessary. 

I have heard of people getting CAD software for free but have searched for it and not found it. The CAD software that is available is very expensive to buy.

http://www.solidworks.co.uk/sw/products/free_2d_tools.htm

 

cavermark

New member
I might organize a northern digital surveying weekend via the cave surveying group at some point - there were a few people from that way who couldn't get a place on the Peak District course.  I'd recommend it for a good overview of digital surveying techniques. Most people can get up to speed with the basics during the weekend, then progress using the friendly online user/help groups.
 

Bottlebank

New member
Adding to the last two comments I have this if anyone would like to take it over and run with it. You would need somewhere to host it, I'm happy to transfer the domain etc to anyone who wants it. It's registered until November 2016.

It got some criticsism for the use of the word "idiot" but you could change the style if you wanted. The intention was to create a walk through guide to producing a finished survey.

http://cavesurveyingforidiots.co.uk/

I started it a while ago with good intentions but decided it wasn't for me.

Any takers - message me if you are interested?


 

Kenilworth

New member
graham said:
In complete contradiction to what you are saying, Kenilworth, one of the major reasons for our adopting computer programs such as Therionand Tunnel to output our survey drawings is that exploration is still ongoing and maps and plans can be added to and updated without having to completely re-draw them by hand when extensions are made and hitherto unknown links are forged.

A hand-drawn survey can only be a snapshot in time and will be left far behind as new discoveries are made. A Therion project will remain as up to date as the survey data underlying it.
This is a good answer. However, let's not pretend that updating maps was impossible before Therion came along. And let's not pretend that we can realistically expect every or even most caves to be the scene of new discoveries. The caves I survey are small, and I like to tell myself that I do a thorough job of exploring and surveying before I put any ink on paper.

What will happen when you get a loop closure error, re survey and find your dodgy legs, then realise that everything needs pulling around to the left slightly..
If a survey takes numerous trips, I don't draw anything except the line plot (which I sometimes do by hand, sometimes do with Compass) until the job is done. So any errors would require adjustment of only the center line. That's a relatively minor job.

Look, I'm not arguing that anyone should go "backward" and start inking maps by hand. I'm only curious why we seem to feel that a handmade map is automatically somehow inferior. If it serves all of the purposes of a cave map, and is neat and well-arranged, what is there to complain about? In fact, why could there not be something to celebrate?
Swallowneck said:
A friend of mine maintains a hand drawn survey of our local system, this has been compiled over the years from historical data and new stuff that he and various other people have gained over quite a long period of time. The system is quite liner and as such the survey is about 1800mm long by 600mm high it also details many surface features such as dry river bed, farms etc.
When we find anything new down it comes off the wall and it is updated by hand. New finds are now surveyed with a Disto and although the data is now also going into Therion we like to update the hand drawn map. We know that there are lots of inaccuracy's on the map mainly due to old data being wrong but that can be corrected over time by resurveying with the Disto.
The point I am trying to make is this particular map really is a historical record, it contains notes from years ago, rubbings out and all manor of other little thing that make it special. It is a beautiful work of art in itself, you could spend hours stood in front of it just looking. It's nowhere near as good a "survey" as the Therion stuff will be but it's light years better than any digital output to look at.
I am desperate for a copy myself but the trouble is it will never be finished, and I also have the small problem of not having a wall big enough.
This is a great story, and illustrates a little bit of what I'm talking about.




 

Roger W

Well-known member
I'm not a surveyor myself, but something someone said about drawing archaeological finds came to mind.

They said something about having to draw an object by hand made you study it that much more closely, and so get a better understnding of it, than just taking a photograph.

Could something like this be in any way true of cave mapping?
 

Kenilworth

New member
Roger W said:
I'm not a surveyor myself, but something someone said about drawing archaeological finds came to mind.

They said something about having to draw an object by hand made you study it that much more closely, and so get a better understnding of it, than just taking a photograph.

Could something like this be in any way true of cave mapping?

Most surveyors sketch the cave by hand while surveying, but the finished copy is produced with various kinds of software. I believe that surveying in general gives a caver a much better understanding of a cave, and forces them to see things (including leads) that wouldn't otherwise be noticed.
 

Bottlebank

New member
There are some big advantages of computer drawn surveys, they're a lot easier to send to other cavers, cheaper to duplicate, easier to put on a website and of course if the old one gets scruffy you can always print another off :)

I no surveyor but I suspect they're a lot easier to collaborate on when producing them.

I'm guessing (from some of your comments) it's also very easy for someone in the US to underestimate the task facing relatively few UK surveyors.

Have a look at this - scroll down the page and get an idea of the number of new finds, just last year:

http://matienzocaves.org.uk/history/2014.htm

This is just one area UK cavers are active in, there are plenty of others.
 
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