Plug and feathers help please?

mole02

mole02

Member
Hi all, just wondering if anyone can give some advice please? Need to delicately remove some mudstone roof, appx 2 feet wide and anything from 3-6 inches depth.
Caps will do nothing, Snappers will cause too much damage and bang..forget it.
What size P & F's do cavers generally use and where can they be purchased?
Also what length should drill holes be to take off as much roof as possible and does this depend on feather length?
For 2 feet wide, how many P & F's would you advocate using, 1, 2, 3 etc?
Sorry for so many questions, I know it's about trial & error, but thought I'd ask for a head start.
ps, the length of the roof could run a considerable distance?
Many thanks in advance, Mark
 
bograt

bograt

Active member
My experience of P&F is what size hammer are you using, and what swing is available?
 
TheBitterEnd

TheBitterEnd

Well-known member
I have some of these:
http://www.amazon.com/Wedges-Shims-Pkg-Sets/dp/B00383GNCU/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1407523672&sr=1-1

The company, Trow and Holden do a range of sizes but the 1/2" work fine for splitting limestone with holes at about 3" centres. Depending on your drill/battery you could probably use something bigger and space them further apart and the feathers may last longer on the bigger sizes.

If you order from them, beware that the Royal Mail will sting you for about ?7 on top of the tax, however the strong pound at the moment probably makes the overall price reasonable.
 
mole02

mole02

Member
Great stuff, thanks for the help and advice 'TheBitterEnd'
I'll give these a try. I'd have probably just tried a couple of P & F,
so much appreciated!  (y)
Mark
 
Simon Wilson

Simon Wilson

New member
It's very cheap and easy to make your own plugs and feathers. I've use 'proper' plugs and feathers and they are great but the ones I've used need a 1 inch hole. My home made ones are just as good and can use any size hole so you don't need to drill big holes.

What you need is a cold chistel and two steel strips. I happen to have a supply of steel strip from my work. Some is 10mm by 2.5mm and some is 16mm by 2.5mm.

Cut several lengths of 10 x 2.5 about 80mm long. Buy a few 1/2 inch cold chistels. Drill a 12mm hole, put two strips in then pound a chistel in between them with a lump hammer. They are so cheap you can carry half a dozen of them and drill a line of holes. You can break off big lumps or break up big boulders.

The 16mm strip I have works well with a 3/4inch cold chistel. When the steel strips are a bit too mangled you just throw them away and make some more.
 
martinm

martinm

New member
Simon Wilson said:
What you need is a cold chisel and two steel strips. I happen to have a supply of steel strip from my work. Some is 10mm by 2.5mm and some is 16mm by 2.5mm.

Cut several lengths of 10 x 2.5 about 80mm long. Buy a few 1/2 inch cold chisels. Drill a 12mm hole, put two strips in then pound a chisel in between them with a lump hammer. They are so cheap you can carry half a dozen of them and drill a line of holes. You can break off big lumps or break up big boulders.
Click to expand...

Forgive my ignorance, but my club just drill holes then drive in a point chisel to split rocks. What difference do the strips (feathers) make exactly? Must be a good reason for using them I guess.


 
Simon Wilson

Simon Wilson

New member
Driving in a chistel works but the strips direct the force more in the plane perpendicular to the taper of the chistel and they also greatly reduce the friction. It's also a good idea to make sure the cistel is narrower than the hole. I've used a half inch chistel in 12mm hole and it works. Strips and a half inch chistel in a 14mm hole is better. I got the hole size wrong; for a half inch chistel and the strips use a 14mm drill.
 
Simon Wilson

Simon Wilson

New member
Proper plugs and feathers are best for splitting rock but good ones are hard to come by and made for large drills. My method is cheap and cheerful and better than a chistel on it's own.
 
Pitlamp

Pitlamp

Well-known member
Just to resurrect this one - I need a set of half inch plugs and feathers - just checked the link which TheBitterEnd suggested above and they're "currently unavailable". All other options on Amazon seem either to be 9/16" or 14 mm minimum. (I have some of these and they are extremely good.)

The reason I now need half inch plugs & feathers is because the holes will have to be drilled using a star drill (for various reasons) and the only star drills I have are all half inch.

Can anyone point me at an outlet that can supply?

Thanks.
 
M

mudman

Member
Pitlamp said:
Just to resurrect this one - I need a set of half inch plugs and feathers - just checked the link which TheBitterEnd suggested above and they're "currently unavailable". All other options on Amazon seem either to be 9/16" or 14 mm minimum. (I have some of these and they are extremely good.)

The reason I now need half inch plugs & feathers is because the holes will have to be drilled using a star drill (for various reasons) and the only star drills I have are all half inch.

Can anyone point me at an outlet that can supply?

Thanks.
Click to expand...

Is the hole size that critical with plug and feathers? I'd get a set of the 9/16" ones. They'll only be about 1.5mm bigger than you are looking for.
 
Big Jim

Big Jim

Member
Some at 13mm here John.  only 0.3mm out from 1/2".  https://www.stonetools.co.uk/plug-and-feathers-british
 
Pitlamp

Pitlamp

Well-known member
mudman said:
Pitlamp said:
Just to resurrect this one - I need a set of half inch plugs and feathers - just checked the link which TheBitterEnd suggested above and they're "currently unavailable". All other options on Amazon seem either to be 9/16" or 14 mm minimum. (I have some of these and they are extremely good.)

The reason I now need half inch plugs & feathers is because the holes will have to be drilled using a star drill (for various reasons) and the only star drills I have are all half inch.

Can anyone point me at an outlet that can supply?

Thanks.
Click to expand...

Is the hole size that critical with plug and feathers? I'd get a set of the 9/16" ones. They'll only be about 1.5mm bigger than you are looking for.
Click to expand...

Thanks - I find oversized plugs & feathers don't split the rock that cleanly as the force ends up being applied only to the upper part of the hole, so only a small bit spalls off. I've generally found it's better to have correctly compatible sizes.

Thanks to Big Jim - that may do the job; I'll look into it
 
Pitlamp

Pitlamp

Well-known member
Um - those Stonetools plugs & feathers appear to cost ?35-16 (not including VAT) for one set!  :eek:

I'd need a minimum of 3 or 4 sets really. Either I find an alternative source or I negotiate a bank loan!

Anyone else got any ideas?
 
AR

AR

Well-known member
Go talk to the blacksmith in Malham about making you some 1/2" sets and see what that would cost?
 
Pitlamp

Pitlamp

Well-known member
Good point AR; thanks.

Not sure when I'll next be over there but I'll swing by and talk to Annabelle.
 
C

cseal

Member
Pitlamp said:
Good point AR; thanks.

Not sure when I'll next be over there but I'll swing by and talk to Annabelle.
Click to expand...

If you find a willing blacksmith, I suspect there will be others on here interested in getting some made too.  May help bring the price down if the quantity is greater.
 
Pitlamp

Pitlamp

Well-known member
cseal said:
Pitlamp said:
Good point AR; thanks.

Not sure when I'll next be over there but I'll swing by and talk to Annabelle.
Click to expand...

If you find a willing blacksmith, I suspect there will be others on here interested in getting some made too.  May help bring the price down if the quantity is greater.
Click to expand...

It seems there's a blacksmiths in Settle as well, which I'd not heard about. The problem with handmade items is they're usually very expensive. As you say though, with bigger volumes, maybe cheaper. I'll swing by when next in Settle.

But surely these things are available off the shelf - somewhere?!  :confused:
(. . . at a sensible price . . . )
 
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