Remembrance

nickwilliams

Well-known member
If your views on cave conservation are strongly and sincerely held then you should continue to make you case on here. However, if you persist in posting opinions to the effect that others are making meaningless statements (http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=21184.msg270478#msg270478) and then yourself make vacuous claims that national organisations no longer 'serve an honourable purpose' (http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=21184.msg270563#msg270563) then you can expect to be challenged.
 

Kenilworth

New member
I don't mind being challenged. I don't like being called vacuous since I've tried to back my claims with honest thought and research. I do not believe that caving organizations serve an honorable purpose. Maybe that's an unintelligent conclusion, but I have been offered no conclusive proof to the contrary.

But I'm trying to focus on what I know best, so I really should leave off, for now, from talking about BCA.
 

nickwilliams

Well-known member
Firstly, by using the phrase 'serve an honourable purpose' you were doing exactly what you had accused others of doing - making a meaningless statement. You can do better.

Secondly, I'm sure you know what you mean by 'serve an honourable purpose' but its a mystery to the rest of us and if you want to be taken seriously, or more significantly, if you want to make people understand your point and maybe change their behaviour because of it, you need to use language that actually means something to other people.
 

Kenilworth

New member
I see.

What I mean is that I do not believe that the net effect that, specifically the NSS, has on caves is a positive one. The idea, originally was not to be simply a caving club, but to learn about caves and to care for them. That focus is long gone, and now the NSS is all about keeping itself afloat. It no longer enables much research, but it does enable lots of damaging recreational caving. I can see no honor in that.

In practical terms, I feel that it would be good for cavers who truly care about the careful use of caves to withdraw support from the NSS, to continue caving and accelerate learning while allowing the ignorant, careless, and purely casual/recreational side of caving to slow and ideally, collapse. Of course, there will always be individuals that fit those descriptions, but they should not be represented and aided by a club claiming to be "speleological" or conservative.
 

Simon Wilson

New member
Kenilworth,
I guess you will have been asked a similar question to the following before on this forum so please forgive me if I'm asking you to repeat yourself.

Briefly, how much caving have you done in countries other than the USA?
 

alastairgott

Well-known member
Kenilworth said:
I see.

What I mean is that I do not believe that the net effect that, specifically the NSS, has on caves is a positive one. The idea, originally was not to be simply a caving club, but to learn about caves and to care for them. That focus is long gone, and now the NSS is all about keeping itself afloat. It no longer enables much research, but it does enable lots of damaging recreational caving. I can see no honor in that.

In practical terms, I feel that it would be good for cavers who truly care about the careful use of caves to withdraw support from the NSS, to continue caving and accelerate learning while allowing the ignorant, careless, and purely casual/recreational side of caving to slow and ideally, collapse. Of course, there will always be individuals that fit those descriptions, but they should not be represented and aided by a club claiming to be "speleological" or conservative.

It would be great if you could give us some numbers.

In the uk i hear people say "there used to be lots more active cavers".

I cannot however vouch for the USA. As an educated (american?) person kenilworth, please could you give us a comparison between the numbers of cavers active when the NSS was promoting "learning about caves and caring for them".
Against the current number of active cavers now the NSS is in your own words "keeping itself afloat".

Clearly you have an axe to grind in america, but i'm unsure if your comments relate to the general situation over here.
Kenilworth? Is there an argument that having a national body in america, albeit with many disperse grottos, is a good thing?
Imagine a situation where there was a spate of stalagmite thefts or an outbreak of white nose syndrome which needed containing or investigating.
By having a national body you have the framework to pass the message on to all the caving regions rapidly? Or is that just my uneducated response to the american politics at play?
 

RobinGriffiths

Well-known member
Is there something against publishing cave locations in the States? I'm sure I've seen something to that effect.... As opposed to the Uk where you can get a myriad of map/cave and mine mashups.
 

Tommy

Active member
Kenilworth said:
I don't mind being challenged. I don't like being called vacuous since I've tried to back my claims with honest thought and research. I do not believe that caving organizations serve an honorable purpose. Maybe that's an unintelligent conclusion, but I have been offered no conclusive proof to the contrary.

But I'm trying to focus on what I know best, so I really should leave off, for now, from talking about BCA.

I don't think it is you yourself that is being called vacuous here, but merely your statements.
When a person is behaving badly, it is not the person that is inherently bad, the realisation of which might cause the person to conflate their identity to with the notion of 'badness'.
But merely that their behaviour is bad; implying a sense of agency. It is their choice to act a certain way.

My opinion: I suspect you come across worse on this forum than you probably are in reality.

To paraphrase Nick (if he doesn't mind...): voice your opinions online, sure, that's what forums and a thin veil of anonymity (or not) are for.

However wrapping everything in a victim's parable does not strengthen that opinion by the slightest amount, nor endear the reader to the author.
 

Kenilworth

New member
Simon Wilson said:
Kenilworth,
I guess you will have been asked a similar question to the following before on this forum so please forgive me if I'm asking you to repeat yourself.

Briefly, how much caving have you done in countries other than the USA?

I've not been asked. The answer is none at all.

This is why I'm trying to reel in some past assertions and focus my efforts on what I know from experience.

Everything I know about caving culture in other countries is based on things I read. This forum, and a handful of British books, for example, are my only exposure to caving in the UK. Worth something, surely, but probably not enough.
 

Kenilworth

New member
Topimo said:
However wrapping everything in a victim's parable does not strengthen that opinion by the slightest amount, nor endear the reader to the author.

I am assuming you refer to my post on the NSS forum. If so, it appears that I am a much worse communicator than I realize. A parable? Loosely, but there is no "victim" and I'm not suggesting an exact parallel.
It is all I can do, even more than I can do, to express basic ideas. Endearment is not a priority



 

Kenilworth

New member
alastairgott said:
It would be great if you could give us some numbers.

In the uk i hear people say "there used to be lots more active cavers".

I cannot however vouch for the USA. As an educated (american?) person kenilworth, please could you give us a comparison between the numbers of cavers active when the NSS was promoting "learning about caves and caring for them".
Against the current number of active cavers now the NSS is in your own words "keeping itself afloat".

Clearly you have an axe to grind in america, but i'm unsure if your comments relate to the general situation over here.
Kenilworth? Is there an argument that having a national body in america, albeit with many disperse grottos, is a good thing?
Imagine a situation where there was a spate of stalagmite thefts or an outbreak of white nose syndrome which needed containing or investigating.
By having a national body you have the framework to pass the message on to all the caving regions rapidly? Or is that just my uneducated response to the american politics at play?

The NSS became a recreational club almost immediately after its formation. This was of course unavoidable given the fact that caving is fun, and that advancements in cave surveying created an explosive age of exploration. There has never been an American culture of care as far as caves (or anything, for that matter) are concerned. Mainstream conservation standards have evolved a little bit over time, but have never advanced beyond the superficial. When I say that the NSS is keeping itself afloat, I mean that it has no philosophy, is aimless, pointless, directionless. Its only use is to accumulate members, using caves as bait.

Is there an argument for a national body? I've been saying as plainly as I can that I don't think so. I have been saying as plainly as I can that the members accumulated by such a national body have left a path of destruction that far outweighs the damage done by unaffiliated cave explorers, vandals, and all of the other forces of spelean damage combined.
 

alastairgott

Well-known member
Kenilworth said:
The NSS became a recreational club almost immediately after its formation. This was of course unavoidable given the fact that caving is fun, and that advancements in cave surveying created an explosive age of exploration. There has never been an American culture of care as far as caves (or anything, for that matter) are concerned. Mainstream conservation standards have evolved a little bit over time, but have never advanced beyond the superficial. When I say that the NSS is keeping itself afloat, I mean that it has no philosophy, is aimless, pointless, directionless. Its only use is to accumulate members, using caves as bait.

Is there an argument for a national body? I've been saying as plainly as I can that I don't think so. I have been saying as plainly as I can that the members accumulated by such a national body have left a path of destruction that far outweighs the damage done by unaffiliated cave explorers, vandals, and all of the other forces of spelean damage combined.

Please elaborate on some examples...

are you mourning the moving away from the indestructible rope technique to more of a European style of SRT? (thereby the placement of more bolts in your caves?)

are your reservations to do with American cavers dropping "pits", Leaving litter and then leaving (as I've heard [spuriously] that American cavers don't like exploring the bottom of the pits).

what precise damage are you referring to? and is there anything that YOU personally could do about it?

is there an argument in opposition to mine stating that there is quite a clear need for a national body, to stop deliberate damage and irreversible disease in our underground world.

You, forgive me if I'm wrong, are not a young whippersnapper!?! surely you could have joined the NSS or helped them mend their ways, and perhaps you still have time to help them improve their Conservation practices.
 

CatM

Moderator
Kenilworth said:
When I say that the NSS is keeping itself afloat, I mean that it has no philosophy, is aimless, pointless, directionless. Its only use is to accumulate members, using caves as bait.

It's interesting to hear your thoughts Kenilworth. I (and I expect many others here) know little about the NSS; however, as you yourself have said, I think it could be dangerous to try to draw too many parellels with the BCA.

In regards to the NSS, would a better approach not be to try to instill some kind of philosophy and direction rather than just branding it as pointless?
 

Kenilworth

New member
alastairgott said:
is there an argument in opposition to mine stating that there is quite a clear need for a national body, to stop deliberate damage and irreversible disease in our underground world.

Only that deliberate damage has not been and cannot be stopped by a national caving body. The same goes for WNS. The available science is now making clear what many felt was logical from the beginning: It is extremely unlikely for cavers to have a share in the spreading of Pd, and bats are extremely efficient at spreading Pd. NSS seized on the WNS issue as an opportunity to demonstrate that cavers are conservationists by dictating unnecessary decontamination procedures and using the general public's ignorance of WNS as a case in point for caver authority.

You, forgive me if I'm wrong, are not a young whippersnapper!?! surely you could have joined the NSS or helped them mend their ways, and perhaps you still have time to help them improve their Conservation practices. 

Yes I am young. I was an NSS member for several years. I wrote some conservation articles and edited a newsletter review column for their journal. At that time I believed the NSS to be harmless if a little bit narrow-minded. Spending time caving in popular caving regions and in reading all of the grotto newsletters that were sent to me for review changed my opinion.

Another important thing that changed my opinion was caving in virgin cave, which is still plentiful in the US if you're willing to work for it. Finding new caves helped me change my caving practices, and to be more careful, observant, and appreciative, even in known and worn caves.

The reason we shouldn't waste energy on trying to influence or reform NSS is that caver attitudes are not NSS' fault. Ours is an entire culture of carelessness, waste, ignorance, narcissism, and destruction. I do not think that that will change. So what we really need is to stop luring people into caves. This is all about a reduction of traffic and trying to find ways to ensure that many of those who do cave have demonstrated, through some form of personal commitment, that they are more likely to be careful.

But now I see a cloud in the sunrise that is downright purple!
Maybe more later.

 

Tommy

Active member
I apologise kenilworth, I probably read into your posts a little too much there.

It seems like a good idea for you could be a UK caving trip and a real immersion in our 'scene'.

While I know nothing of the NSS or the american caving sphere, if your observations are correct about the lack of a fundamental philosophy and direction whilst maintaining recreational growth, then I ask you if you have any involvement in the climbing world over there?

From discussions with american climbers visiting mainland Europe (on my holidays) and at home in the UK, there seems to be a similar situation with regards conservation, bolting, trad climbing, and so on. The UK is respected for its ethics but is the international oddity in some of these considerations.

Perhaps the issue is not just with caving but a much deeper cultural malady?
 
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