As a club we had a long discussion during the AGM last night relating to call out times.  It was proposed that we should have a set time for a call out for ALL trips.  This was discussed, and decided that not all caves would warrant a late or earlier call out time.  The idea of a formula was also raised (length of cave X potential for getting lost etc X numbers in group X pitches X pitch lengths etc etc).

What do other people do about call out times, we don't want a call out set too early so that we rush to get out and have an accident, but also not too late so that we are sat freezing for hours before a call out is even made!

Your thoughts greatly appreciated

7 pages to be getting on with:

http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=7462.0
http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=3064.0
http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=2129.msg20691#msg20691

If there is a guide such as NFTFH I use the longest time plus 2 hours to account for minor mishaps, so far so good no overdues. I really dont like tight call outs as I may find something interesting that warrants exploring I don't want to feel I can't because of a too tight call out. I have had to have rush out of caves before or not bottom them due to other peoples call outs. On the flip side if its too long its going to be likly that time plus 4 hours before anyone gets to you on average.

The people i cave with normally do it so our call out is between 1 and 2 hours after we get out..  So if we predict to get out at 1300 the call out will either be 1400 or 1500 depending on the cave, whether we have done it before, and whether we are exploring or doing a through trip.

I think you could discuss and debate this topic until Roger opens the back room of the Hunters as an internet cafe.

Cheers

Stu.

Stupot said:

I think you could discuss and debate this topic until Roger opens the back room of the Hunters as an internet cafe.

Cheers

Stu.

Click to expand...

we need a like button on here

Stupot said:

I think you could discuss and debate this topic until Roger opens the back room of the Hunters as an internet cafe.

Cheers

Stu.

Click to expand...

You haven't heard, then? 

Even better, an internet cafe for midgets!!

So that's what the inside of an internet cafe looks like then? (I've never actually been in one.)

Think I prefer the Hunters as it is . . . . .

Pitlamp said:

Think I prefer the Hunters as it is . . . . .

Click to expand...

But that is how it is, Pitlamp. As you'd know if you came south of Chorley these days.

South of Chorley? I did not know Bolton had any internet cafe's. Well I guess I have not been in the town center for a few years now.

I make very late call outs. My thinking is: something is either bad but not so bad that assisted by others in the cave party we can get 'em out before rescue is bothered (feed 'em and beat 'em works, minor injury that is workable but just slows the group down, maybe we took a wrong turn, a car broke down before we got back to cell signal, or we found a lead and lost track of time...etc) or it is SOOOO bad that another few hours for a later callout isn't going to matter in the scheme of things. After all, if something that serious does happen, someone is running out to call for rescue which will probably get out before the callout time anyway.

I'm on cave rescue here, and so are many I cave with. I know what response times are and agencies that have to be dealt with (we cannot self-dispatch, we must be requested by the AHJ), we are all volunteers spread out over a huge region...we are good, but it takes time. Heck many caves you have to drive 30min-1hr to, and then have a long hike before the entrance. I'm sure anyone in cave rescue realizes just how much time it takes...Golden Day not the Golden Hour! When we teach our intro to cave rescue course we say "assume for every hour into the cave a good able bodied caver is, it will be 10 hours for rescue from time of injury". Perhaps a bit long it sounds, but considering from injury, someone has to get out or callouttime passed, hike back to car, get back to cell signal, call 911, AHJ shows up, then Cave Rescue is called in, we mobilize, arrive on location, get gear hauled up mountains to the site, get patient stabilized and packaged, get 'em moving out....takes more time than one would think.

Of course, the 10 hrs for rescue for every hour in is true for *rescue* cases....there are plenty of lost people, and as I believe JV coined.... the "Feed 'em and beat 'em" phrase. I heard a story about Surprise Pit (our deepest in Alabama, 400+ ft, single pitch it's all completely freehang) some dudes did it, got to the bottom, decided they were too tired to climb out...JV was property manager at the time, got there first before anyone else showed up, went down, gave them food and water, and told them no one was hauling their ass out. If they wanted out, they had to climb. And guess what? All of a sudden they could all magically climb out! Hence...feed 'em and beat 'em! there are a lot cases like that where people just get tired biting off more than they can chew. Those sorts of rescues don't typically take so long, but there is no real injury.

In UK its the same except we have an answer for injuries too in rescues (feed em, beat em, drug em). Better to walk them out then haul them out on a stretcher.

Drugs here are hard to administer. We have paramedics and another team does have a doctor. But many drugs cannot be given leagally in lots of cases...so many rules and such covering that its a can of works that frankly I don't know about details. We do what we can yes, assisted exit is always faster and better than carrying them out, whenever possible! I am most amused about the same phrase across the ocean!!! That's pretty awesome lol

Amy said:

Drugs here are hard to administer.

Click to expand...

Alex somewhat overstates the case. Pain killers are used, but great care is taken when the casualty needs to be stretchered out of a cave. It is more important that the patient remains conscious than comfortable.

Maybe Alex ment the SAR team?    :alien:

We have special cas care courses over here Amy, where certain rescue team members can complete a course and are therfor legally allowed to administer controlled drugs. It goes without saying that these have to be administered carefully, not just for the reason Lancliff mentions but due to allergies and other counter indicators.

And I didn't mean to give the impression we never do...just that it's rare to really need to (or, to bother the time to) mess with drug administration of that caliber, and it is very highly controlled. Another unit has a doctor, and we have EMT's and paramedics, I forget all the particular rules but controlled drugs can be administered following specific rules and parameters. I believe (but don't quote me! on this!!) that if we have a written protocol from a doctor as to the drug and usage situation, a paramedic can administer it as per the orders, and if a com line is run (as in case of long rescues, ones that would likely need this) doctors can instruct paramedics on usage/administration via that. We certainly do work with IV lines and drug administration and everything else underground if situation calls for it, but everything is quite strict.