Before I start I would prefer all prejudice(s) be put aside for this one. All I would like is for people to share their feelings towards such things. Nothing anyone says here, for-or-against, will change my own feelings towards such. Please save answers such as (e.g 'if I knew the rescue team were coming for me should I ever get in to trouble then I don't really care what they do') for someone else.. I am not questioning the integrity of or the fact that such organisations do us a great service.
Please excuse the poor film quality..
Thanks Si

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhTQge0XLKU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CimlA67PPlY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9I2BzIPOOY


 

Looks like the CRO installed an 'interim aerial' to aid communications. Must admit, It would be better if someone had taken the trouble to remove it after the incident.

The aerials in question (about six if i recall in total) were installed by the UWFRA.

As this is posted in Cave Conservation, I take it that you (Simon) don't approve....
They certainly look a mess, but I'd be interested to hear from whomever installed them - presumably it was done for what was felt to be a good reason.

Simon Beck said:

The aerials in question (about six if i recall in total) were installed by the UWFRA.

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Have  you contacted them to get their view on it?

Yes I have... Their reasons are not reason enough for me..

They could be left from the recent Dowbergill call-out on the 19th (2 days ago) and haven't been collected yet?

No they're not from the recent rescue - I've been doing the Through trip on a frequent basis this past year now and they've been there at least that long - some of them since 2011/12...

Simon Beck said:

Yes I have... Their reasons are not reason enough for me..

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Well give us all the info then

Lets wait for a representative from the team to step forward and explain - believe me! they will justify their need to exist till the cows come home, I know cos I've heard it all before.. 

Would be interesting to know the percentage of UWFRA callouts which are related to Dowbergill, maybe its one of their priorities?

However, though I appreciate that communication is vital in a rescue situation, leaving bits of wire hanging in a cave is not good practice--, let the first team know where the attachment points are, and trust them to set it up, then arrange for removal after the incident.

Hi Si, not seen you for a while. How's the finger doing?
I'm currently the Underground Leader for UWFRA and as such had a hand in coordinating and caving during the recent callout to Dowber Gill. It was a search for two people who were both found well and escorted out. The in situ aerials did prove very useful during this in providing comms and directing people in what as generally agreed to be a hard piece of caving passage with notoriously difficult underground communication issues.
But I do agree with Si that these aerials (that have been around in the system for quite a while now) are getting pretty unsightly and need something doing about them. When they were first put in quite a lot of effort was made to make them as out of the way as possible. However the cave environment and passage of cavers over time has changed this so that some of them really do need revamping/removing.
These are my thoughts:  Gypsum - still working well and fairly well laid out of the way - keep for now
                                        Bottom of 60' Rift - A failed experiment to try and establish comms after a callout here - in the way and plans afoot for its removal
                                        800 Yard Chamber - downstream wire is adrift and a pain in the arse in the passage/upstream wire abraided and broken - this is a very significant comms point and needs to be sorted so that it works AND is laid out of the way of passing cavers/sympathetic to the cave.
                                        Bridge Cavern - as per Gypsum

But, and its a good but, I'd still like to see them all out because at some point they'll become a problem again and will again need sorting. To that end we've currently got an order going in for a number of the Cave-Link sets that, if the trials to date are anything to go by, won't need all this fixed wire stuff to work.  I'll keep you all posted and I hope this has answered a few questions.

Just a thought at the end of this post; Dowber Gill and indeed a number of other caves have fixed ropes to help cavers through. These are used by some and not required by others. At what point do we decide that in situ ropes should be kept or removed? I'm pretty sure that Si could traverse from Dow to Prov and back without the need for any rope in the cave, but others...
And what about dive lines?

Cheers all

Rich Hudson

Response appreciated Rich.. But, lets not get in to an ethical debate about insitu ropes and lines - this complaint is exclusive to that one issue - period!... Ropes for climbing and dive lines for sumps can be carried,installed and removed by the caver/diver while undertaking the trip - which is exactly what a rescue team should do before during and after a rescue..
Like I mentioned to another representative from the organisation this morning - had an offer been made, back at the beginning of the year (when I made my initial complaint) to at least tidy them up a little then some elements of this drama could have been avoided, e.g a compromise of some sorts instead of the excuses I have received.

What 'drama'?

The intention of these aerials is obviously good but as with many items taken into caves they can look a mess over time. They are overdue a tidy up and full marks to Simon for highlighting a long standing problem and Rich for responding in a positive manner.

It does sound like technology will solve this particular issue quite soon.  Just as the Nicola radio type systems did away with the need to string miles of telephone cable down caves so will the CaveLink System do away with the need for aerials of this type (as I understand it).  Sooner the better I guess.

Badlad said:

... so will the CaveLink System do away with the need for aerials of this type.

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As I understand, Cavelink and Nicola use similar aerials.

Before I start I would prefer all prejudice(s) be put aside for this one

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Please save answers such as (e.g 'if I knew the rescue team were coming for me should I ever get in to trouble then I don't really care what they do') for someone else

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lets not get in to an ethical debate about insitu ropes and lines - this complaint is exclusive to that one issue - period!

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For someone that went to the trouble of posting a question on an open forum...you seem awfully keen to suggest how you'd prefer people to answer and frame their response...
Would it not have been simpler just to say...Fixed Cave Radio Aerials in Dowbergill...what do people think?

Personally I couldn't care less what other folk think to the above. The majority of you lot don't have to look at them on a frequent basis. When all is said and done, where cave conservation is concerned - it's a no brainer really isn't it..

Jason-- I for one think that comment is totally out of order, it suggests personal feelings against Simon, and the present attitude of UKC should not allow this----!

Simon Beck said:

Personally I couldn't care less what other folk think.....

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Quote snipped to provide the real answer.... 

The majority of you lot don't have to look at them on a frequent basis.

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Very true, I like to visit a large number of different caves, some short, some long, some fat, some skinny, rather than constantly treading the same ground. Been there done that, plenty more to see etc.

That said, when I was there last (years ago) there wasn't all that rather unsightly stuff dangling around. Rescue or not it really does need tidying up - be it removal or being placed discretely out of sight of the average caver. I'd be somewhat disappointed to stumble across all that on a trip - it actually looks worse than the old systems where wire was trailed through a cave - at least that was small and discreet!