Caving insurance - club opinion/policy ?

Ian Adams

Active member
The issue of non-insured cavers  (tagging along with an insured group) has arisen locally and  I would be very grateful for opinions as to the policies of other clubs (and the ?realism? of those policies)

For instance;

A) I understand that a ?new? caver can come along with the club as a ?taster? and the BCA insurance policy extends cover to that (please correct if wrong) ?
B) What if that same person wants to come along outside of the permitted BCA insurance timeframe?  Would ?your club? disallow such a request ?
C) If the request was allowed, is there any detriment to the insured members or would it just be the uninsured member who has accepted a ?risk? ?
D) What if it is a member who didn?t renew their subs ? would ?your club? treat that person any differently ?
E) What if it were the son or daughter of a member who was under 18 ? would ?your club? treat that person any differently ?
F) Is the ?risk? for an under 18 different to ?C? above (ie. will it fall to their parent who is also on the trip and insured ?) ?

Basically, what I am asking is ?how does your club handle non-insured visitors on your trips? ?

All opinions (and any facts) very welcome please.

Thanks

Ian Adams
 

ogofmole

Member
Interesting questions, and ones that we have asked ourselves many times , so will look forward to reading reply s.

But our club welcomes new people caving, but after a couple of trips, we insist on them having BCA insurance.

As we were under the impression, that if anyone caves with us who is not under the initial try caving, or a member who has not renewed there BCA insurance, then the rest of us will not be covered as a club.

We would also like to know if this is correct.
 

bograt

Active member
Yup! very interesting questions, maybe its time for the BCA to offer guidelines on this?
 

Peter Burgess

New member
What if an individual with a genuine interest in being taken into a particular site approaches an insured club, to be shown the site. This happens from time to time. Someone is visiting our area and is free on a particular evening to join us on a trip. If he is from another insured club and has "active" status then I can see there is no problem. But it is not unknown for a non-club caver to do this, and they will have no intention to join our club, and we have no expectation that they will. They may or may not be a DIM. Should we really be bothered?I personally would not want to turn someone away simply because they were were not personally insured, and would never follow the pretense that they were "prospective members". Oft times, said people might simply be non-cavers who are curious to see a particular site or feature, and just want to be taken safely to see them with experienced people. If we don't do it, can we be surprised if they decide to go and take a look for themselves, with attendant risks, and possibly unlawful entry involved?
 

nickwilliams

Well-known member
I will address these questions in due course, but I need to deal with some work and family matters this evening so I'm afraid it's unlikely to be tonight.

Nick Williams
BCA PL Insurance Manager
 

owd git

Active member
Jackalpup said:
The issue of non-insured cavers  (tagging along with an insured group) has arisen locally and  I would be very grateful for opinions as to the policies of other clubs (and the ?realism? of those policies)

For instance;

A) I understand that a ?new? caver can come along with the club as a ?taster? and the BCA insurance policy extends cover to that (please correct if wrong) ?
B) What if that same person wants to come along outside of the permitted BCA insurance timeframe?  Would ?your club? disallow such a request ?
C) If the request was allowed, is there any detriment to the insured members or would it just be the uninsured member who has accepted a ?risk? ?
D) What if it is a member who didn?t renew their subs ? would ?your club? treat that person any differently ?
E) What if it were the son or daughter of a member who was under 18 ? would ?your club? treat that person any differently ?
F) Is the ?risk? for an under 18 different to ?C? above (ie. will it fall to their parent who is also on the trip and insured ?) ?

Basically, what I am asking is ?how does your club handle non-insured visitors on your trips? ?

All opinions (and any facts) very welcome please.

Thanks

Ian Adams


For caver. read 'Drinker' would this alter your answer?






Seriously though I wouldn't drink with an un-insured drinker.
 

owd git

Active member
If  I am not yet banned ;
there are so many well travelled and safe mines and 'easy' caves locally. I have, and shall waive the insurance issue to ' In a well controlled and measured manner' encourage sensible, and aware adults to look underground, and hen decide how they feel about furthering their experience with regard 'caving / mine exploration.
Shoot me now!
O. G.
 

Ian Adams

Active member
Cookie,

Thank you for your clarification - that is very helpful (and to Nick who I think is "in progress")

As well as the "hard facts", how (question aimed at anyone and everyone) does your club handle the initial scenarios ?

I do understand the rules laid down in the link provided by Cookie but the practicalities are often very different - for instance, we have all (presumably) just renewed our insurance through the BCA but what if an unpaid member wants to come on the club trip "tonight" ?

.... Would you really turn them down ?

:)

Ian
 

bograt

Active member
owd git said:
If  I am not yet banned ;
there are so many well travelled and safe mines and 'easy' caves locally. I have, and shall waive the insurance issue to ' In a well controlled and measured manner' encourage sensible, and aware adults to look underground, and hen decide how they feel about furthering their experience with regard 'caving / mine exploration.
Shoot me now!
O. G.

Nowt wrong with that OG, providing the access agreement doesn't stipulate that insurance is required.
Also be careful of your interpretation of 'safe', we used to use Hopping/Tear Britches a lot for novice trips, then a 'rock bopper' tried for a nice crystal and got terminally squashed!. (not on one of my trips BTW)
 

damo8604

New member
Does the mere fact that an insured club bringing along non members who aren't insured through the BCA scheme void the club's PL insurance?

In this scenario, if someone decided to sue the club, would the members insured through the CIM scheme would have to pay out of their own pockets?
 

Bottlebank

New member
There is no legal requirement to have insurance to cave, you either have it or you don't. Obviously there are some local agreements/sites where insurance is specified as a condition of access.

Insurance provides cover in the event you are charged or sued - if you don't have it you pay the bill out of your own pocket.

If a club were sued because some of it's members were on a trip where a non member caused damage I think that would be the defence i.e. you are suing the wrong person - it wasn't "us".
 

bograt

Active member
I really think this should be answered by the specialists, Nick has offered to clarify, I think most regional bodies have an insurance rep., these are the folks to respond to this enquiry.
'Barrack room lawyers' are treading on dangerous ground.
 

royfellows

Well-known member
There has never been a claim on BCA insurance.
There is never likely to be either
Anyone who goes underground deliberately wouldn't stand a cat in hell chance of successfully suing anyone for anything.
Check out "Tomlinson v Congleton BC"
 

Bottlebank

New member
royfellows said:
There has never been a claim on BCA insurance.
There is never likely to be either
Anyone who goes underground deliberately wouldn't stand a cat in hell chance of successfully suing anyone for anything.
Check out "Tomlinson v Congleton BC"

An good decision but a claim doesn't have to come from someone underground so I'd rather not bank on that. You're free to :)

The DCC had to recompense a farmer for losing a prize bull down a shaft in the sixties - an expensive job at the time. Before my time but apparently all members were told to either pay their share or leave the club.
 

Bob Mehew

Well-known member
jasonbirder said:
Has anyone ever been sued under the BCA insurance scheme?
I recall that there were two claims settled out of court in NCA days.  The first very clearly reinforced the principle that since most clubs are unincorporated, then cover for the 'club' and hence members could only be acquired by insuring all members.

I think Bottlebank is disastrously wrong.  The claim I refer to did not just focus on those on the trip but also named club officials for (in simple terms) letting the trip 'go ahead'.  The first basic principle of suing someone is to look where the money is and then construct some link between those in the money and the accident.  Also his response mixes criminal and civil legal matters which is usually rather doggy.

Only DCA have an officer covering insurance.  Nick is BCA's Insurance Manager so an authoritative comment on what the current policy does and does not do is best left to him.  Cookie's helpful reference to the FAQs unfortunately did not point out that they were based on the old policy.  Nick announced at the January Council meeting that the new broker is producing an update so there could be some changes.

Unfortunately Tomlinson v Conglton BC (see http://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKHL/2003/47.html ) only covers where the guy is being stupid.  If the guy is lead into being stupid whether deliberate or not, then who knows what might succeed.  The principle of ?volenti non fit injuria? (literally a willing man cannot be injured) appears to have been seriously eroded by lawyers exploiting 'well you never mentioned that hazard'. 

The only certainty in this area is there is no certainty.
 

Jenny P

Active member
If you have someone who is not intending to join the club but simply wants to be taken to a particular cave which requires that all cavers are covered by a BCA insurance, then taking out a "temporary" insurance through BCA would seem to cover it. 

The system which has worked in my club for the last few years is to request a payment of ?5.00 for a "BCA temporary insurance" (which only covers 17 days, i.e. will cover 3 weekends) and you take all the necessary details from the person insured.  If the person then decides to join the club, the ?5.00 is deducted from the probationary membership subscription and they go on to become a full member in due course, with the club passing on their details to BCA as soon as they sign up as a Probationary Member.  If they decide they do not want to do any further caving, the details of any temporary memberships taken out just need to be passed to BCA at the end of each year.

I hope that something similar will operate with the new insurance arrangements because this "temporary membership" arrangement is extremely useful.

In fact, whether or not the owner of the cave requires cavers to be covered by BCA insurance, it is still wise to ensure that everyone who goes caving with the club is covered by the BCA insurance in case of other unforeseen incidents involving club members, the landowner or even members of the public. 

Anyone caving with the club but not covered by the BCA insurance will not, as I understand it, have the "member to member" cover.  So if the non-club person is hurt he may decide to sue the club or the landowner, or if a club member is hurt because of his actions, they will not have their member to member cover.  In either case it could be tricky and expensive.

It just does seem worthwhile to ensure that everyone is covered by the same insurance when it's only a matter of the price of a few pints.
 

Bottlebank

New member
Bob Mehew said:
jasonbirder said:
Has anyone ever been sued under the BCA insurance scheme?

I think Bottlebank is disastrously wrong.  The claim I refer to did not just focus on those on the trip but also named club officials for (in simple terms) letting the trip 'go ahead'.  The first basic principle of suing someone is to look where the money is and then construct some link between those in the money and the accident.  Also his response mixes criminal and civil legal matters which is usually rather doggy.

The only certainty in this area is there is no certainty.

Wrong perhaps, but "disastrously"  :-\

I think you misunderstood my use of the term "charged" - I meant financially - as in the DCC paying for the Bull, not criminally.

I'd stand by the first two sentences of my statement, and I think the third is broadly correct.  If three cavers go caving, two insured and one not and the uninsured one causes damage, I acknowledged you could be sued, but I think you have a defence. That said, yes, I suppose there is still room for a claim especially for legal costs so I was wrong :)

I was also assuming that all attendees on "club" trips were covered, but should have made that clear.

Then again I do tend to agree with your last sentence :)

 
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