Crossing conservation tape (split from Update on Twll Du)

nickdegarepitt

New member
Sorry forgot to add these pics which Were sent to me when I submitted my freedom of information request, even picture evidence isn?t enough for NRW to act.
f20ba38c9c95271a1ae7b864de320abd.jpg
3dc85964f0e5e08e626b74d99e468f8b.jpg



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nickdegarepitt

New member
nickdegarepitt said:
Sorry forgot to add these pics which Were sent to me when I submitted my freedom of information request, even picture evidence isn?t enough for NRW to act.
f20ba38c9c95271a1ae7b864de320abd.jpg
3dc85964f0e5e08e626b74d99e468f8b.jpg



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The pics are were taken in OCAF which is a triple SI site, this encompasses the formations being climbed on in the pics.


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andrewmcleod

Well-known member
nickdegarepitt said:
The pics are were taken in OCAF which is a triple SI site, this encompasses the formations being climbed on in the pics.

I don't think tapes have any legal meaning?
That's not to say people should be crossing them, just that if they cross them and don't cause any damage I can't see how an offence has occurred. I can't see how your screenshots demonstrate, beyond reasonable doubt, that damage or an offence has occurred. Are you implying that every surveying or original exploration that has crossed tapes has breached the law?

Equally you can no doubt cause damage without crossing poorly-placed tapes and have committed an offence. But a very high standard of proof would no doubt be required...

It's a dangerous road trying to get people in trouble for doing things in SSSIs because cavers don't get to draw the legal lines (or indeed tapes) and it could all backfire.

I suspect education, delivered in an increasingly insistent fashion, and eventually if necessary naming and shaming, is probably a safer strategy...
 

AWW

New member
Well I find cavers crossing tapes offensive. Our caves are delicate and the tapes are laid out to minimise the inevitable damage from us visiting them.  The action of walking on a formation will leave mud and debris on something that has been pristine for millenia. And for what? A selfie by the look of things.

 

Chocolate fireguard

Active member
andrewmc said:
nickdegarepitt said:
The pics are were taken in OCAF which is a triple SI site, this encompasses the formations being climbed on in the pics.

I don't think tapes have any legal meaning?
That's not to say people should be crossing them, just that if they cross them and don't cause any damage I can't see how an offence has occurred. I can't see how your screenshots demonstrate, beyond reasonable doubt, that damage or an offence has occurred. Are you implying that every surveying or original exploration that has crossed tapes has breached the law?

Equally you can no doubt cause damage without crossing poorly-placed tapes and have committed an offence. But a very high standard of proof would no doubt be required...

It's a dangerous road trying to get people in trouble for doing things in SSSIs because cavers don't get to draw the legal lines (or indeed tapes) and it could all backfire.

I suspect education, delivered in an increasingly insistent fashion, and eventually if necessary naming and shaming, is probably a safer strategy...

When I was very young I was told by an uncle who served with the Desert Air Force near Tobruk in 1942 about the advice they gave to people sent out from Britain with little experience, but who insisted on shouting the odds straight away.
It was "Get yer knees  brown."

I think there was something about barrack room lawyers too, but it's a long time ago now so I might be wrong.
 

NewStuff

New member
AWW said:
Well I find cavers crossing tapes offensive. Our caves are delicate and the tapes are laid out to minimise the inevitable damage from us visiting them.  The action of walking on a formation will leave mud and debris on something that has been pristine for millenia. And for what? A selfie by the look of things.

Let me preface this:- ruining stals and formations is silly.

You do not have a "right to not be offended", it's up it's up to you what does and does not, offend you, but you being offended is no basis for prosecution. It matters not a jot to anyone looking into prosecuting someone for damage if they were taking a selfie or filming a full blown (pun fully intended) porn shoot. Hurt feelings are not a basis for prosecution. Broken laws are.

People being offended and thinking it has any weight beyond opinion offends me.
 

AWW

New member
Oh ffs.
It was a play on words but the perception of offence and offence caused by offence is obviously something that causes a lot of rightous indignation on both sides these days.
I'll rephrase.
People crossing tapes for some purely selfish reason really pisses me off.
Better? (I've had a Snickers now).
 

nickdegarepitt

New member
A cave is a cave whether SSSI or not, cavers should adhere to the caving code of practice, tapped off areas should be respected and not crossed unless it is absolutely necessary, part of having a key to access a cave such as OCAF is to adhere to the rules and that includes not crossing tapes. I strongly believe access to gated caves should be withdrawn for such breaches by individuals or a club.


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Madness

New member
A educated caver shouldn't need tapes to let them know where or where not to walk. We should all be keeping an eye out for formations etc. and avoiding them at all cost, even if i means going no further.

But we've drifted off topi again.
 

royfellows

Well-known member
Sorry to drag the thread back but fair play to Cookie
:LOL: :clap:

The bit he misses though is being offended on behalf of someone else who doesn't give a toss, and then being offended because they are not offended.
 

BradW

Member
Madness said:
A educated caver shouldn't need tapes to let them know where or where not to walk. We should all be keeping an eye out for formations etc. and avoiding them at all cost, even if i means going no further.

But we've drifted off topi again.
Tapes can be very useful to educated cavers. They often protect things that might not be obvious, especially in a cave you haven't been to before. Vulnerable features of caves are not limited to pretty crystals and straws.
 

SamT

Moderator
BradW said:
Tapes can be very useful to educated cavers. They often protect things that might not be obvious, especially in a cave you haven't been to before. Vulnerable features of caves are not limited to pretty crystals and straws.

Spot on, i've place conservation tape around things that would certainly just get trampled over, by the educated and the non educated (are we talking university degree level here, or just to A level standard). 

It might be small crystals growing under rocks, or fossils embedded in the shards on the floor.

The devil is in the detail!!
 

Andy Farrant

Active member
It is always worth taping as there many things that are worth preserving that are not as obvious as stal formations, and which might otherwise get destroyed. This includes sediments, for example the ripple marks in Gilwern Passage, pools which may harbour various cave adapted species, archaeological material, guano or cryogenic calcite deposits - how many of us have walked past or over these not knowing what they were?
 

caving_fox

Active member
Andy Farrant said:
It is always worth taping as there many things that are worth preserving that are not as obvious as stal formations, and which might otherwise get destroyed. This includes sediments, for example the ripple marks in Gilwern Passage, pools which may harbour various cave adapted species, archaeological material, guano or cryogenic calcite deposits - how many of us have walked past or over these not knowing what they were?

I would love to know more about why certain areas are taped off. Is there a resource anywhere with a list of what features are in specific caves?
 

The Old Ruminator

Well-known member
Andy Farrant said:
It is always worth taping as there many things that are worth preserving that are not as obvious as stal formations, and which might otherwise get destroyed. This includes sediments, for example the ripple marks in Gilwern Passage, pools which may harbour various cave adapted species, archaeological material, guano or cryogenic calcite deposits - how many of us have walked past or over these not knowing what they were?

Good job we taped off the cryogenic stal in The Frozen Deep before anyone knew what it was.
 

The Old Ruminator

Well-known member
Some of us to our shame have done it. Who is culpable though the caver over the tape or the photographer ? My folly was in Withyhill after it had been retaped. The new tape was in a different place and I published a photo of a subject with her arm over it. ( yes. I have seen far worse from other cave photographers ). Consequently I was removed from the leader list for two years and did penance by fitting a new entrance to Balch Cave on my own. There was no risk of damage to the cave but I was wrong and took my punishment accordingly.
 

andrewmcleod

Well-known member
Sometimes tape may simply be to limit damage to one area; for example tram lines in wide passages. OFD2, for example, would look quite different if 15 million people hadn't trampled over the entire width of every passage within 500m of the entrance. True you'd have a 1m wide avenue of destruction, but not a 10m avenue of destruction.
 

ttxela2

Active member
The Old Ruminator said:
Some of us to our shame have done it. Who is culpable though the caver over the tape or the photographer ? My folly was in Withyhill after it had been retaped. The new tape was in a different place and I published a photo of a subject with her arm over it. ( yes. I have seen far worse from other cave photographers ). Consequently I was removed from the leader list for two years and did penance by fitting a new entrance to Balch Cave on my own. There was no risk of damage to the cave but I was wrong and took my punishment accordingly.

Oh, are you saying that no part of your body should cross the tape in a sort of invisible line above it? I'm not a frequent caver and more often visit mines (where you do sometimes find tapes as well) whilst I am always careful to respect the tape as far as footfall goes it's never occurred to me that the tape represents a sort of notional vertical barrier too. I suppose if the taped off area has long straws hanging off the roof then waving your arms about above it could cause damage. Surely though if the tape is just around something on the floor then having your arm over the tape - say to take a photo from above - is ok isn't it?

Or have I misunderstood?
 
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