UK Caving

WHERE THE CAVES ARE - The Caving Regions => The Dales => Topic started by: Balmerfish on July 23, 2018, 11:48:46 am

Title: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Balmerfish on July 23, 2018, 11:48:46 am
Hi,
Feeling curious regarding these metal bars that have appeared in KMC after 8ths July (i think). We saw them around 21st, and grabbed some quick pics this Saturday -pics arnt wonderful quality.
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Ian Ball on July 23, 2018, 11:58:09 am
Whereabouts are they?  (look ugly to me)
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Balmerfish on July 23, 2018, 12:01:47 pm
Hi Ian, Not 100% sure of proper name. They were about the main stream way - there are already bolts up there.
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Simon Beck on July 23, 2018, 12:03:00 pm
They are god awful! No two guesses who installed them!
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: paul on July 23, 2018, 12:03:57 pm
Part of the high-level traverse above the streamway for high water conditions?
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Balmerfish on July 23, 2018, 12:06:54 pm
Hi Paul,
 i wondered that too, it was an area that there seemed to be plenty foot holds, and place for rope to be riggeed - so i wasnt sure.
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: maxf on July 23, 2018, 12:09:31 pm
Pretty sure there were some in there back in May
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Simon Beck on July 23, 2018, 12:16:05 pm
Why now after almost half a century managing without?

Regardless of the good work they do I've never felt they have any right to adapt the caves to their needs, adapting themselves should remain paramount.
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Cave_Troll on July 23, 2018, 01:06:03 pm
underground via ferrata ?
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: aricooperdavis on July 23, 2018, 01:51:48 pm
Could someone take pity on me - is KMC the Kingsdale Master Cave? :shrug:
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Ian Ball on July 23, 2018, 02:06:20 pm
yes
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Inferus on July 23, 2018, 09:27:19 pm
I contemplated a long reply but to condense it a little...

Why????  :wall:

Someone has the answer, be brave and explain..
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Cave_Troll on July 24, 2018, 08:28:40 am
why ? - because someone thinks they're needed or useful
you presumably don't

in the same way that most people think P Bolts are useful and others don't
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Ed on July 24, 2018, 10:25:49 am
Why now after almost half a century managing without?

Regardless of the good work they do I've never felt they have any right to adapt the caves to their needs, adapting themselves should remain paramount.

No use of hangers / bolts, scaffolding or capping for you in future Mr B?
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Alex on July 24, 2018, 10:30:04 am
I thought they had been there a lot longer than that, at least as far as the climb alternative to the pitch. I recall seeing one there over a year ago, about 2 thirds of the way up. Unless I am imagining things.
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: MJenkinson on July 24, 2018, 10:34:58 am
Why now after almost half a century managing without?

Regardless of the good work they do I've never felt they have any right to adapt the caves to their needs, adapting themselves should remain paramount.

No use of hangers / bolts, scaffolding or capping for you in future Mr B?

I think there’s a slight difference between exploration / digging and rigging aids in a well travelled cave.
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Simon Beck on July 24, 2018, 12:18:32 pm
Under the differing circumstances we operate, no two cavers will ever agree on everything, and I wouldn't expect them too.

This mind you is a pretty radical upgrade to a system that worked perfectly fine before as it was. I maybe jumped the gun accusing the obvious rescue team. But whoever it was needs to come forward and explain. 
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: fillipe_ferlop on July 24, 2018, 12:43:13 pm
As a member of the 'obvious recue team',  and a member of the Ops group for said team,  I can tell you that any permanent rigging or aids we fit are always done in consultation with CNCC or,  above ground,  the BMC and other interested parties. These steps have never been discussed or sanctioned by the teams Ops group.
On some rescues,  we need to rig extra hangers or bolts,  which are then either made good or referred to CNCC to see if they will allow them to remain.
Believe it or not, we do try not to damage the cave environment.
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Flotsam on July 24, 2018, 12:46:28 pm
I could climb the pitch without aid 30 years ago or so and I was a pretty rubbish climber
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: mch on July 24, 2018, 04:37:07 pm
I could climb the pitch without aid 30 years ago or so and I was a pretty rubbish climber
Me too. I can't see why you would need aids. If you were doing a through trip from Simpson's or Swinsto exiting via KMC and felt that you weren't competent to free climb the pitch then just pop in and rig it beforehand.
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: langcliffe on July 24, 2018, 04:45:59 pm
I could climb the pitch without aid 30 years ago or so and I was a pretty rubbish climber
Me too. I can't see why you would need aids. If you were doing a through trip from Simpson's or Swinsto exiting via KMC and felt that you weren't competent to free climb the pitch then just pop in and rig it beforehand.

I spotted these on Saturday, and they are nowhere near the climb into the Roof Tunnel. They are on part of the high level traverse on the true left - I assumed at the time they they were located at the most awkward section of the traverse. I wonder if they are anything to do with commercial caving?
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Simon Beck on July 24, 2018, 04:46:51 pm
I've only seen the pictures myself, but from what I gather they are not an aid to ascending the Roof Tunnel pitch, they're an addition to the high level traverse within the ceiling of the Master Cave.
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Ian Ball on July 24, 2018, 06:41:16 pm
Forgive my questioning but are they a 'product'?  or a bent bit of rebar and resin anchored in?  Are they inox, mild, another steel or some other alloy?




Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Wolfo on July 24, 2018, 07:00:36 pm
Guessed from the picture they are badly homemade (no constant bending angles, so no bending jig was used) and from mild, galavanized construction steel (second picture - a bit of rust?).
Stainless steel is a bit of critical, as you should know exactly the used material if you do cold bending.

Resined/glued/cemented in - hopefully yes.   :o
Otherwise the shitty drillghost should be attached by some tradtional hangmans knot to his "work", guilty of building suicide anchors.
But cannot imagine someone so dump.
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: mch on July 24, 2018, 07:02:40 pm
I spotted these on Saturday, and they are nowhere near the climb into the Roof Tunnel. They are on part of the high level traverse on the true left - I assumed at the time they they were located at the most awkward section of the traverse. I wonder if they are anything to do with commercial caving?

Ah - thanks for clarifying that langcliffe.
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Inferus on July 24, 2018, 07:20:14 pm
why ? - because someone thinks they're needed or useful
you presumably don't

in the same way that most people think P Bolts are useful and others don't
As per previous posts that have suggested similar; they've not been needed for decades, so why now? Is it now open season for anyone to install whatever they like, anywhere they please, just because something is a tiny bit tricky?  :shrug:
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: langcliffe on July 24, 2018, 07:28:36 pm
As per previous posts that have suggested similar; they've not been needed for decades, so why now? Is it now open season for anyone to install whatever they like, anywhere they please, just because something is a tiny bit tricky?  :shrug:

They are incredibly unsightly. I suspect that unless someone comes up with a good reason for them being there, they won't last long.
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Wayland Smith on July 24, 2018, 07:33:11 pm
Are there any commercial operators using the system? I would be asking there.
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Wolfo on July 24, 2018, 07:37:19 pm
Are there any commercial operators using the system? I would be asking there.

Those kicks are know (at least here in Germany) from the mining business, but are out of use since decades.
Much thicker material and deeper holes of cause.

As for me, no commercial use today.
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Simon Beck on July 24, 2018, 07:42:26 pm
If these aids (or at least some) have been there for as long as some folk are claiming, possibly a year, why haven't the obvious suspects come forward and disassociated themselves from the act before word got out. I find it hard to believe this has gone unnoticed by those I speak of. 
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: langcliffe on July 24, 2018, 07:59:33 pm
If these aids (or at least some) have been there for as long as some folk are claiming, possibly a year, why haven't the obvious suspects come forward and disassociated themselves from the act before word got out. I find it hard to believe this has gone unnoticed by those I speak of.

I don't think that they have been there for that long. Alex thinks he remembers something at the climb that has been there for some time, but I haven't seen anything there other than a couple of bolts. I last went through KMC on May 23rd, and I am reasonably sure that at least one of the two of us would have spotted them if they were in place then - they certainly shouted out to me on Saturday.

I can't be certain, though.
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Balmerfish on July 25, 2018, 12:14:49 am
Forgive my questioning but are they a 'product'?  or a bent bit of rebar and resin anchored in?  Are they inox, mild, another steel or some other alloy?

Ian-

Ok i will try to answer best i can - they looked like bits of rebar that that been shaped and put in place using resin. They looked like they had bits of white plastic on them, which we saw other evidence of. I could be wrong on that , i was viewing from below.  There are similar to stuff ive seen used in the mines.  Thats the extent of my metal steps knowledge :)

It is completely possible that they have been hear since before July and i just didnt spot them.
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Cave_Troll on July 25, 2018, 09:09:26 am
https://www.raumerclimbing.com/eng/prodotti_dettaglio.asp?prod=%F816_mm-270x300_stemple_rung_-_raumer-classic-_model-ribbed_bar&qi=0-21-378&qinav=0-21-c
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Simon Wilson on July 25, 2018, 10:06:11 am
why ? - because someone thinks they're needed or useful
you presumably don't

in the same way that most people think P Bolts are useful and others don't

Are you saying that there are people who don't approve of the anchor scheme? Would you like to enlarge on that?
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Ian Ball on July 25, 2018, 10:29:01 am
https://www.raumerclimbing.com/eng/prodotti_dettaglio.asp?prod=%F816_mm-270x300_stemple_rung_-_raumer-classic-_model-ribbed_bar&qi=0-21-378&qinav=0-21-c
 

That's a deep drill hole!
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Alex on July 25, 2018, 10:50:03 am
Quote
why ? - because someone thinks they're needed or useful
you presumably don't

in the same way that most people think P Bolts are useful and others don't

Are you saying that there are people who don't approve of the anchor scheme? Would you like to enlarge on that?

I guess people may think it's too easy or something like that. I for one am all for the anchor scheme, I mean on conservation grounds it saves drilling a new bolt hole every 5 - 10 years. Anyway's off topic, I suggest splitting if anchor scheme is going to be discussed further.

P.s. Well done on doing Marble sink!
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Simon Wilson on July 25, 2018, 11:50:15 am
Quote
why ? - because someone thinks they're needed or useful
you presumably don't

in the same way that most people think P Bolts are useful and others don't

Are you saying that there are people who don't approve of the anchor scheme? Would you like to enlarge on that?

I guess people may think it's too easy or something like that. I for one am all for the anchor scheme, I mean on conservation grounds it saves drilling a new bolt hole every 5 - 10 years. Anyway's off topic, I suggest splitting if anchor scheme is going to be discussed further.

P.s. Well done on doing Marble sink!

I think it's on topic. There are some people who don't understand the reason why we have an anchor scheme. They tend to be cavers who aren't old enough to know what was happening before. If you look around at the head of some ptiches you will see an unsightly assortment of redundant metalwork. There used to be a free for all with people installing all manner of stuff in a totally anarchistic way. The majority of cavers viewed what was happening as very undesirable. The CNCC started to install anchors in a systematic and regulated way.

Cave Troll compared the anchor scheme to someone installing what appear to be via ferratta steps and the two things are totally at odds. The purpose of the anchor scheme is to remove the need for people installing DIY anchors. The majority of cavers understand why we have the anchor scheme and approve of it. I think most cavers would dissaprove of anybody installing fixed aids in caves which were not entirely neccessary for cavers to get down the cave and especially if they damaged the cave and could not easily be removed. That's the complete opposite of the anchor scheme.
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Cave_Troll on July 25, 2018, 01:04:59 pm
i was saying that its a sliding scale.

Some people might say "i've always free climbed it, whats the problem?"
Some people may think we should be rigging off nuts, slings and stemples that we remove when finished.
others say that to get safely down that hole anchors of some kind are useful
others may feel that a via ferrata may be the way forward.

Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Simon Wilson on July 25, 2018, 03:37:12 pm
i was saying that its a sliding scale.

Some people might say "i've always free climbed it, whats the problem?"
Some people may think we should be rigging off nuts, slings and stemples that we remove when finished.
others say that to get safely down that hole anchors of some kind are useful
others may feel that a via ferrata may be the way forward.

You're making this sound a lot more complicated than it is.

We have a sytem that has evolved over more than five decades of Dales caving. There used to be a line of stemples on Battleaxe Traverse. The people who initiated the systematic installation of anchors removed the stemples and installed a line of anchors (Spits at first, later replaced with resin anchors). They established a principal that we don't install aids such as stemples or steps but instead we install anchors and use rope to protect progress on natural holds. This provides the highest level of safety with the minimum impact on the cave.

The CNCC only install anchors and we install the minimum number. The anchor scheme is open to public scrutiny, any caver can express their views on anchor installations and their opinions are actively invited. They can request installations or apply to become an installer. It is because the anchor scheme is run by a democratically constituted body in a way that is open to public scrutiny that I can confidently say that it has the approval of the majority of cavers. It also has the approval of the Cave Rescue Organisation, BCA, Natural England and Yorkshire Dales National Park.

Imagine asking those bodies if they approve of somebody taking it on themselves to install via ferratta steps in a cave. Imagine what would happen if somebody just went and installed via ferratta steps across Middlefell Buttress or Malham Cove.

It is quite simple - most cavers know what is approved of and what is not approved of.
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: alastairgott on July 25, 2018, 06:14:39 pm
I can see cave trolls point, but this is a very specific case in a well known place. If we installed a via ferrata course round Titan, yes it would be impressive. But it would also be a travesty!
 Common sense must prevail, stemples have no place in known pbolted caves.

We've installed some in a small mine in Derbyshire, but to negate the need for SRT entirely, as in the specific case it's a Faff, for no benefit.


Cave now, Faff later.
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: JB on July 25, 2018, 09:56:05 pm
In my opinion (and obviously plenty of others) they need to go. CNCC are the right group for the job after a quick vote? and I hope there's someone who thinks likewise who will push to get it done.

Jules.
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Cap'n Chris on July 26, 2018, 08:32:57 am
Six people appear to have taken issue with this. Many have not.

Whoever went to the (significant) effort to install these (presumably for a perceived compelling reason) would doubtless be disheartened if their work was vetoed by a tiny cabal and subsequently removed.

The people who aren't impressed with the efforts should avert their eyes and carry on caving without recourse to them.
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Cave_Troll on July 26, 2018, 11:10:34 am
are the metal steps in wall still there in Old Ing/Dismal Hill ?
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Andyj23UK on July 26, 2018, 11:11:28 am
i has looked at the pics - and read the thread - but still unsure EXACTLY where these are - and what they are supposed to achieve

access to the " hi level traverse " - is NOT hard .
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: langcliffe on July 26, 2018, 11:15:45 am
i has looked at the pics - and read the thread - but still unsure EXACTLY where these are - and what they are supposed to achieve
access to the " hi level traverse " - is NOT hard .

They are a little way downstream from where the traverse crosses the passage. They are definitely not meant to facilitate access to the high level traverse. I suspect that they are intended to make one section easier.
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: MarkS on July 26, 2018, 11:17:56 am
The people who aren't impressed with the efforts should avert their eyes and carry on caving without recourse to them.

That sounds like a slippery slope. I think they should be removed unless a seriously good justification can be put forward for them to remain.
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: BradW on July 26, 2018, 11:29:46 am
The people who aren't impressed with the efforts should avert their eyes and carry on caving without recourse to them.

That sounds like a slippery slope. I think they should be removed unless a seriously good justification can be put forward for them to remain.
Removing them might also be considered the start of a slippery slope, without investing some serious time in finding out who put them there and to what end. THEN decide what to do, having had a civilised debate with all interested parties.
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: alastairgott on July 26, 2018, 11:31:29 am
Remove them.
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Ian Ball on July 26, 2018, 11:38:23 am
are the metal steps in wall still there in Old Ing/Dismal Hill ?

Hope so   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Chocolate fireguard on July 26, 2018, 11:38:54 am
i has looked at the pics - and read the thread - but still unsure EXACTLY where these are - and what they are supposed to achieve
access to the " hi level traverse " - is NOT hard .

They are a little way downstream from where the traverse crosses the passage. They are definitely not meant to facilitate access to the high level traverse. I suspect that they are intended to make one section easier.

At last.
After 3 days and more than 40 replies, many given over to wailing and gnashing of teeth and only a couple asking for this information, we now know where they are.
How many of us really bother to read stuff, and then wonder if we have enough information, before rushing off a reply?
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: MarkS on July 26, 2018, 11:39:27 am
Removing them might also be considered the start of a slippery slope, without investing some serious time in finding out who put them there and to what end. THEN decide what to do, having had a civilised debate with all interested parties.

Personally I think the default position should be that caves should not have anchors/aids added without investing some serious time to ensure there is consensus, rather than the reverse. Anyhow, I have no doubt it will be concidered by the CNCC when they next meet and they are the best group to be making these decisions.
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Dave254 on July 26, 2018, 12:07:49 pm
are the metal steps in wall still there in Old Ing/Dismal Hill ?

They are still there (or at least they were when I used them last week!)
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Badlad on July 26, 2018, 12:33:14 pm
If, whoever placed these stemples had planned to install any more then I hope the concern shown here will put a stop to it - for now anyway.  Although the person or persons involved haven't come forward publicly a number of different groups are trying to get to the bottom of the matter.  I'm sure the likes of CRO and CNCC have given it some thought but I doubt any outcome will be immediate.  We should consider that these may have been installed with the best of intentions for a genuine purpose.  We should also consider that there are many man-made and fixed aids across the caves of the Dales so this is not unprecedented but very difficult for everyone to agree on where the line is drawn.
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Simon Beck on July 26, 2018, 01:18:07 pm
When I initially saw the pictures it never occurred to me that anybody other than the rescue services would require a modification like this, especially considering how frequently it gets used by them. For my part I owe the organisation an apology for jumping to conclusions, sorry. My cynical response I'm afraid is the result of prior episodes..
Regardless of whether those responsible come forward they need to go I think! It's sounding more and more like the work of non cavers, those that don't know any better etc.
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: swinstobob on July 27, 2018, 01:44:25 pm
As a member of the 'obvious recue team',  and a member of the Ops group for said team,  I can tell you that any permanent rigging or aids we fit are always done in consultation with CNCC or,  above ground,  the BMC and other interested parties. These steps have never been discussed or sanctioned by the teams Ops group.
On some rescues,  we need to rig extra hangers or bolts,  which are then either made good or referred to CNCC to see if they will allow them to remain.
Believe it or not, we do try not to damage the cave environment.
These certainly are not sanction by CRO. The Cave Rescue Organisation did not install them.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Badlad on July 27, 2018, 08:45:38 pm
Although these may not have been sanctioned by the CRO they were installed by a prominent member of the CRO team for cave rescue purposes - were they not?

There is a worthy debate to be had here as we could pre-install fixed aids in many caves in order to assist cave rescues should they happen in the future.
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Simon Beck on July 27, 2018, 09:00:19 pm
So nobody else in the organisation knew anything about it except the prominent member!? What a load of bullshit! 
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: JJ on July 27, 2018, 10:24:26 pm
For the record I am as pissed off about this as everyone else.

I attended the CRO Opps meeting on the 11th April 2018 and this was minuted, with names redacted (xxxxx).

 Equipment
 A discussion on the KMC ropes following a trial by xxxxx and xxxxx.
 All Knots to be removed from the rope and stored with karabiners
 Locations of extra bolt placings to be forwarded to CNCC ACTION xxxxx, xxxxx
 Tandem pulley for the wire section to be bought ACTION xxxxx

I have a clear memory of this meeting and at no time where stemples discussed or the instillation of extra anchors except through the CNCC. I do not believe the person who may be responsible attended this meeting or is in any of those redacted names above.
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Cap'n Chris on July 27, 2018, 10:30:45 pm
Perhaps the solution (for future reference) is to drill/rockhammer natural-looking footholds into the rock rather than have visible protruding metal staples which clearly seem to cause teacup tsunami(s) and disproportionate indignation. Same person(s) could do either. The effort/time involved would be similar. Could be an ideal workaround.
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Balmerfish on July 27, 2018, 11:56:19 pm
well this is all clear as mud.
Perhaps the best way forward is to not embarrass anyone with " them them " type debates. But to have a constructive convo about what happens now ? 
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: SamT on July 28, 2018, 12:00:34 am
Fuck it.. install a train

https://youtu.be/dBANF-dmy28
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Balmerfish on July 28, 2018, 12:03:00 am
Fuck it.. install a train

https://youtu.be/dBANF-dmy28

Chuckle - :)
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: topcat on July 28, 2018, 05:31:26 am
 I hope the passengers  were given clear instructions not to stand up, as in  "if you stand up will die !" 😁
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Wolfo on July 28, 2018, 07:53:27 am
well this is all clear as mud.
Perhaps the best way forward is to not embarrass anyone with " them them " type debates. But to have a constructive convo about what happens now ?

Pull the shitty steps out  ;)
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Pete K on July 28, 2018, 08:03:20 am
While an effort to establish who and why must still be made, I think to leave these in would set a precedent for more aids of this type being thought of as acceptable. The agreed anchor scheme is the foundation of environmentally responsibility in the regions and, although the odd random anchor does appear from time to time without issue, the acceptance of via ferratta steps and steel cables is the thin end of a wedge that ends at tacky adventure tourism in every cave site. I install these things as part of my work, but it is a very different thing when you are doing it in a manmade environment (mine) you own, natural cave is off limits IMO.

Perhaps the landowner needs to be asked if he/she consented to this. It is their cave on their land after all. That is a pretty solid yes/no and then they can be pulled out without complaint if they were not consulted.
The CNCC's anchor tester should pull them out no problem and the holes can be plugged with mud to make the area appear natural again. Better than chopping them off.
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Pitlamp on July 28, 2018, 08:09:55 am
Just be wary of dragging landowners into this kind of issue, unnecessarily.  In this particular example we enjoy the best possible access (just turn up and go). If caving becomes perceived as hassle by landowners, then ultimately we might not be quite so welcome.

This seems to me to be a problem which the caving community should be able to sort out internally.
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Simon Beck on July 28, 2018, 10:16:14 am
Just be wary of dragging landowners into this kind of issue, unnecessarily.  In this particular example we enjoy the best possible access (just turn up and go). If caving becomes perceived as hassle by landowners, then ultimately we might not be quite so welcome.

This seems to me to be a problem which the caving community should be able to sort out internally.

Couldn't agree more, especially with the recent change of ownership.
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: langcliffe on July 28, 2018, 12:11:55 pm
Just be wary of dragging landowners into this kind of issue, unnecessarily.  In this particular example we enjoy the best possible access (just turn up and go). If caving becomes perceived as hassle by landowners, then ultimately we might not be quite so welcome.

This seems to me to be a problem which the caving community should be able to sort out internally.

Couldn't agree more, especially with the recent change of ownership.

Has Foredale Farm changed hands as well as Braida Garth?
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Badlad on July 28, 2018, 01:00:33 pm
As I understand it KMC is not owned by Braida Garth Farm which did change hands 18 months ago.  Braida does own Yordas and some of the fields on the west side of Kingsdale but there are several other landownerships too.  I do agree that none of them need to be troubled by this relatively trivial matter.  It is something cavers should be able to sort out themselves.
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Pete K on July 28, 2018, 04:34:54 pm
Sorry, the bit about asking the landowner was meant to be a bit tongue in cheek. Of course they won't have been asked, but that is the point really, it's not 'our' cave to modify, however you view the access legal situation, whoever did this did so against the majority opinion and without (almost certainly) asking the cave owner.
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: JB on July 28, 2018, 09:51:11 pm
Six people appear to have taken issue with this. Many have not.

Whoever went to the (significant) effort to install these (presumably for a perceived compelling reason) would doubtless be disheartened if their work was vetoed by a tiny cabal and subsequently removed.

The people who aren't impressed with the efforts should avert their eyes and carry on caving without recourse to them.

Don't know if you're aware of this? https://cncc.org.uk/conservation/
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: maxf on July 28, 2018, 10:28:43 pm
Perhaps a sign could be installed stating not to look upwards for the short time you walk underneath them for the people who are easily offended by some metal sticking out of rock...

Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Fulk on July 28, 2018, 11:13:11 pm
Ha Ha bloody Ha.
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Cap'n Chris on July 29, 2018, 12:16:15 am
Sorry, the bit about asking the landowner was meant to be a bit tongue in cheek. Of course they won't have been asked

What if they had, and the landowner said yes, though?
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Pitlamp on July 29, 2018, 08:16:12 am
Six people appear to have taken issue with this. Many have not.

Whoever went to the (significant) effort to install these (presumably for a perceived compelling reason) would doubtless be disheartened if their work was vetoed by a tiny cabal and subsequently removed.

The people who aren't impressed with the efforts should avert their eyes and carry on caving without recourse to them.

Without wishing to express any personal opinion on this problem, either way, I feel it would be useful just to mention that many northern cavers are watching this with concern (but see little point in commenting here, or elsewhere, until the facts are established). The number of responses on this forum is often (but by no means always) a guide to the level of interest.

Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Simon Beck on July 29, 2018, 10:40:25 am
Perhaps a sign could be installed stating not to look upwards for the short time you walk underneath them for the people who are easily offended by some metal sticking out of rock...

A notice on the home screen of ukcaving warning that ***** may be lurking is i think more of a priority.
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Pegasus on July 29, 2018, 01:13:31 pm
Administrator Comment This is an important issue which merits discussion. All cavers should feel able to post on this thread and voice their opinion/comments whatever they may be, so please keep comments civil, thank you
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Simon Beck on July 29, 2018, 09:46:51 pm
This is an important issue which merits discussion.  All cavers should feel able to post on this thread and voice their opinion/comments whatever they may be, so please keep comments civil, thank you
Why have you not added an admin-comment to the original post to which this refers? That was quite clearly posted with the intention of provoking a heated response...

Most of the contributors to this thread, whether for or against, have been pretty constructive. The comment I responded to was where, in my opinion, the attempted provocations lies.   
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Inferus on July 29, 2018, 10:20:15 pm
Admin: I am in error therefore delete my worthless contribution and any associated replies. Much appreciated.

Admin here - have deleted as requested.  :)
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Simon Wilson on July 30, 2018, 09:59:09 am
The CNCC's anchor tester should pull them out no problem and the holes can be plugged with mud to make the area appear natural again. Better than chopping them off.

By "anchor tester" I assume you mean Hydrajaws. I doubt a Hydrajaws will pull them out.

The BCA own three Hydrajaws testers, one of which I believe is in the hands of the DCA. I have never seen a Hydrajaws.
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Simon Wilson on July 30, 2018, 10:02:37 am
In my opinion (and obviously plenty of others) they need to go. CNCC are the right group for the job after a quick vote? and I hope there's someone who thinks likewise who will push to get it done.

Jules.

I think the first person to be asked to remove them should be the person who installed them.

I think nobody should install anything in a cave that can't be removed and that they are not prepared to remove.
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Wolfo on July 30, 2018, 10:26:59 am
You could pull stuff like this with two hydraulic jacks (car type) and a bridge made from a cut of solid U-section (U60). If there is no possibility to fix a hanger, some  windings of 6mm cord would fix the step to the U-section.
Allways did the job for me, but a bunch of ironmongery to carry down.
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Badlad on July 30, 2018, 12:23:26 pm
There have been a number of discussions going on behind the scenes on this topic as well as on here.  From what I have heard in snippets from CRO and CNCC is that the most likely outcome is that these metal steps will be removed.  How and who by is yet to be determined.  I think the principle reason is that there is no pressing need for them from a rescue viewpoint and general consensus is to have less fixed aids rather than more.  Certainly the CNCC only endorse the anchor scheme and have rejected any involvement with other fixed aids due to liability perceptions and simply not enough resources to maintain them properly.

Onlookers can be assured that the person responsible will be publicly flogged and humiliated probably in the stocks next to the Marton Arms although rumour has it that he will probably enjoy it more than he should  ;)
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Simon Beck on July 30, 2018, 01:05:28 pm
The attempted deception was the only punishable crime committed here.

Thanks for the update.
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: braveduck on July 30, 2018, 07:38:16 pm
Well this has generated some indignation and possibly not a little bit of hypocrisy .
So what is the difference between installing one metal bar in a not too obvious place
and engineering a totally artificial passage through a boulder choke using large
amounts of Scaffolding Tube which then remain in place for ever .
   :-\
     
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: danthecavingman on July 30, 2018, 07:51:00 pm
Well this has generated some indignation and possibly not a little bit of hypocrisy .
So what is the difference between installing one metal bar in a not too obvious place
and engineering a totally artificial passage through a boulder choke using large
amounts of Scaffolding Tube which then remain in place for ever .
   :-\
   

Quite a bit actually....
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Simon Beck on July 30, 2018, 07:51:57 pm
Well this has generated some indignation and possibly not a little bit of hypocrisy .
So what is the difference between installing one metal bar in a not too obvious place
and engineering a totally artificial passage through a boulder choke using large
amounts of Scaffolding Tube which then remain in place for ever .
   :-\
   

Hi Braveduck

I've already said enough here and don't wish to debate this any further. Although I feel your comment is irrelevant to the subject in hand I can certainly see your point and don't disagree with you. If you wish to make an official complaint against what it is I am doing, be my guest.
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: topcat on July 30, 2018, 07:57:26 pm
The hypocrisy is more than just a little bit.  It is staggering.
It is not often I go caving without heavy reliance on caver introduced aids of one sort of another: bolts, drilled threads, blasted ( mined!) passage, copious amounts of various steel work, and even the odd artificial foothold.  I often crawl over smashed up stal etc, sacrificed in order to push the cave.

I bet 'you' do too..........

Tc
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: aricooperdavis on July 30, 2018, 09:37:41 pm
So what is the difference between installing one metal bar in a not too obvious place
and engineering a totally artificial passage through a boulder choke using large
amounts of Scaffolding Tube which then remain in place for ever.

For me there are lots of things that help draw that line, but "necessity" is a big one for me. I think that, to get through that boulder choke, it's necessary to move boulders and keep them moved. So on pitch heads that have bomber naturals or trees or whatever, I don't think that bolts are necessary to make that bit of caving safe, but on lots of pitches it is necessary to have some way to install ropes in order to descend, so they should be bolted (but only where necessary). So I would think that deciding whether the steps should be there or not should include thinking about whether they're necessary to access something on the other side. I don't know this bit of cave at all, by the way, but I am interested in the aid debate :)
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Tribal Chestnut on July 31, 2018, 01:03:20 am
I popped into KMC today for the first time and, as I was waiting around for a little while, wondered upstream and found these. There was one just up from the downstream sump and another five a little further on.

Bit of a eyesore and from below they do seem to be rather pointless, though that is only to my own inexperienced eye. I assumed that they had been installed by some sort of activity co. for the school holidays. Quite rough looking - pieces of bent rebar resin fixed in place.

I can see why many are getting rather uppity.
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: droid on July 31, 2018, 01:37:59 pm
RE the 'necessary' theme: there's plenty of caves that have been descended on naturals for decades, that are now fully bolted up. Bolting that's been sanctioned by those that take it upon themselves to sanction such things.

Just saying.....
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: aricooperdavis on July 31, 2018, 02:15:13 pm
That's where the necessity vs convenience line becomes tricky to draw - I'd happily have a couple of discrete bolts to use if it gives a dryer hang (which could be necessary to pass the cave safely in certain conditions), or even if it makes it easier to find decent anchors that you can trust (and that could be necessary to allow safe descent by cavers unfamiliar with the particular naturals). We need as fair a way as possible to sort out the cases like this that are close to that necessary line - and regional councils seem like an excellent way to handle that. You've got the potential for input from lots of interested cavers, a good forum for discussion, and a way to document the process. So I'd be anti vigilante-bolters/metalwork installers, and pro the CNCC fixed aids scheme (if it's done properly, which it certainly seems to be to me!).
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Simon Beck on July 31, 2018, 02:19:22 pm
RE the 'necessary' theme: there's plenty of caves that have been descended on naturals for decades, that are now fully bolted up. Bolting that's been sanctioned by those that take it upon themselves to sanction such things.

Just saying.....

I'm not really the person to comment on this, don't really know the specifics etc..  but in many of these cases approval was sort via the cncc, via their rebolting program was it not?
Isn't that why the organisation exists, to sanction these types of things?
It doesn't suit everybody sure, but there appears far less hostility towards the re-bolting issue (since it began) than there does towards an isolated incident, such as the one that sparked this debate.

Let's not forget why this thread came about, because approval was not sort, for something fairly unprecedented, from someone, from an organisation, that would usually seek approval before taking such steps. 
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Simon Wilson on July 31, 2018, 02:37:49 pm

The CNCC only install anchors and we install the minimum number. The anchor scheme is open to public scrutiny, any caver can express their views on anchor installations and their opinions are actively invited. They can request installations or apply to become an installer. It is because the anchor scheme is run by a democratically constituted body in a way that is open to public scrutiny that I can confidently say that it has the approval of the majority of cavers. It also has the approval of the Cave Rescue Organisation, BCA, Natural England and Yorkshire Dales National Park.

Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: mikem on August 01, 2018, 08:24:24 am
A well placed anchor or step is far more environmentally friendly than the rope / strop wear marks & polish on many naturals, never mind the damage done to trees by regular use...

Mike
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: topcat on August 01, 2018, 09:14:19 am
A well placed anchor or step is far more environmentally friendly than the rope / strop wear marks & polish on many naturals, never mind the damage done to trees by regular use...

Mike

Indeed.  Back in the 80's I suggested that at a set of VF steps on the Kingsdale pitch would have been better than the bolt farm and wire damage from ladders.  The suggestion wasn't popular then either!  :)

That pitch is pretty much permanently rigged [only been once or twice when it wasn't so did the climb, which has sprouted fixed bolts recently, but only low down, unless these have been extended??].  It looks a mess.   It is a mess.

I appreciate that the locations are not the same, by a few meters, but I can't see a great deal of difference between an incomplete {?} bolt ladder at the climb and the steps that are causing so much angst.  But then, I haven't seen them.  I'll have a look in two weeks time.

Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Simon Wilson on August 01, 2018, 10:34:07 am
A well placed anchor or step is far more environmentally friendly than the rope / strop wear marks & polish on many naturals, never mind the damage done to trees by regular use...

Mike

Indeed.  Back in the 80's I suggested that at a set of VF steps on the Kingsdale pitch would have been better than the bolt farm and wire damage from ladders.  The suggestion wasn't popular then either!  :)

That pitch is pretty much permanently rigged [only been once or twice when it wasn't so did the climb, which has sprouted fixed bolts recently, but only low down, unless these have been extended??].  It looks a mess.   It is a mess.

I appreciate that the locations are not the same, by a few meters, but I can't see a great deal of difference between an incomplete {?} bolt ladder at the climb and the steps that are causing so much angst.  But then, I haven't seen them.  I'll have a look in two weeks time.

These steps are nothing to do with the pitch. They are on the high level traverse.

I think most people are OK with some permanent rigging on the pitch. The CNCC have a policy of installing no fixed aids other than anchors and that is not likely to change. So anything on the pitch will have to be done without the CNCC.
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: mikem on August 01, 2018, 10:53:05 am
Although you should still check the exit route before starting your trip, so may as well rig it - the only thing being that so many groups may be in there that a permanently rigged rope would reduce the tangle....

Mike
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: topcat on August 01, 2018, 11:18:15 am
Although you should still check the exit route before starting your trip, so may as well rig it - the only thing being that so many groups may be in there that a permanently rigged rope would reduce the tangle....

Mike

That's kind of what I was thinking.  It can get very confusing with multiple ropes / ladders. 
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Simon Beck on August 01, 2018, 11:31:54 am
It was made pretty clear earlier in the thread that these have nothing to do with the pitch. 
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: topcat on August 01, 2018, 11:53:40 am
It was made pretty clear earlier in the thread that these have nothing to do with the pitch.
We realise this: topic drift as per usual  :-[
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: CNCC on August 06, 2018, 11:04:41 pm
Hello everyone

Needless to say that the CNCC have been following this thread and have had discussions outside of it too. We have reason to believe that these metal 'steps' were installed with the best of intentions and possibly out of a misunderstanding. There is certainly no need for any witch hunt. The installer has kindly agreed to perform the necessary work to remove them and repair the damage as best as possible if this is the wish of the CNCC Committee.

The general feeling within the CNCC Officers at the moment is that they should be removed; based mostly on the grounds that they are not stainless steel and may, in time, result in a rust streak down the cave walls which would be most undesirable.

There will however be a discussion on this at the 13th October CNCC Committee meeting (9:30am Hellifield Institute). If you have any opinions that you would like to voice you are welcome to come along or to contact me directly. If the feeling of this meeting is to remove them then we will ask the installer to do so and we will offer advice on filling the holes to make them unnoticeable.

Of course the CNCC cannot claim to be the arbitrator of any matters relating to the installation of fixed aids in caves; nor do we have any authority to allow or refuse permission for such installations. In fact, we specifically cannot endorse any fixed aids other than stainless steel resin anchors installed in accordance with BCA policy.

We are however always happy to offer advice or the use of our meetings as a friendly face-to-face discussion forum for any such matters. We encourage anyone considering installing anything into cave walls (anchors, staples, pegs etc) to get in touch with us to discuss first so we can offer conservation advice and maybe help identify alternatives. In particular, for anchors on popular routes, we may even suggest getting this done under the CNCC anchor scheme (for which consumable costs can be reclaimed) which means we can publish them on our topos for other people to use :)

Matt Ewles, CNCC Secretary

Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Balmerfish on August 07, 2018, 12:06:20 am
Many thanks, for clarity on this matter - much appraicated.

Adele
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Simon Wilson on December 30, 2018, 08:18:07 pm
I just read a post on Cavers of Facebook which said, "An adventure company has destroyed the charm of a beautiful cave. Now full of graffiti. Catalunya, Spain." It accompanied a photo of some metal via ferrata style steps in a cave. It reminded me of KMC and this thread.

I've been for a look in KMC and the steps are still there. There is one on its own and then a series of five close together. They are huge - made of 16mm reinforcing bar and identical to ones seen on the via ferratas created by 'adventure companies'.
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: langcliffe on December 30, 2018, 08:42:38 pm
I've been for a look in KMC and the steps are still there. There is one on its own and then a series of five close together. They are huge - made of 16mm reinforcing bar and identical to ones seen on the via ferratas created by 'adventure companies'.

According to the provisional minutes of the above mentioned CNCC meeting: "Action: Matt Ewles to contact the installer to inform them that the CNCC wishes for these to be removed and separately discuss with Simon Wilson.". So you should know all about it!
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Cap'n Chris on December 30, 2018, 08:43:34 pm
Is there a difference between people going caving and people going caving, now?
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: droid on December 30, 2018, 08:55:46 pm
Maybe the difference is between one group of people that put metalware into a cave to make things easier/safer and another group doing the same?
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Badlad on December 30, 2018, 09:22:36 pm
I understand an initial attempt by the installer to remove them failed.  Simon was due to be consulted for his advice but that may not have taken place yet.  At that October meeting the CNCC committee felt they should be removed on conservation grounds.  However, that process may not be as simple as it sounds.
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: JoshW on December 30, 2018, 10:59:25 pm
as a side note nobody had posted up outside of this thread that they had seen them since they'd been put in place, so either:

1) nobody has been down KMC - almost certainly false
2) people have seen them and found this thread so not started a new one - based on how little people tend to use the search function, i guess unlikely
3) people haven't seen them or thought them obtrusive enough to kick up a fuss about...

 :coffee:
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: langcliffe on December 30, 2018, 11:47:27 pm
as a side note nobody had posted up outside of this thread that they had seen them since they'd been put in place, so either:

1) nobody has been down KMC - almost certainly false
2) people have seen them and found this thread so not started a new one - based on how little people tend to use the search function, i guess unlikely
3) people haven't seen them or thought them obtrusive enough to kick up a fuss about...

There is a fourth possibility - people may be content with the decisions made by the CNCC in October, and are allowing them to be enacted in a time frame compatible with the available volunteer resources. There is no point in continually banging on about the issue.
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Simon Wilson on December 31, 2018, 10:14:02 am
There was a gap of nearly five months since anybody commented on this thread and nearly five months since the installer agreed to remove the steps. I think five months is more than a reasonable length of time to wait before asking questions. I'm sure most cavers would agree that they should be removed ASAP. The only people who might want them to remain are a few people in the adventure business.

Since the installer has said they will be removed, I'm waiting to see how he proposes for it to be done.
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: ali_mac on January 02, 2019, 01:17:38 pm
Who is the mystery installer?
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: ahinde on January 02, 2019, 02:51:32 pm
This has not been forgotten about. The original installer and myself failed to remove the staples with levers and car jacks. The staples are too flexible. Therefor I set up a test bed with some left over staples in my yard at work. We have been trying alternative methods including sawing off the staple at 75 mm and cutting a thread onto the end. We were able to withdraw the fixed end using a nut and oversized socket as a spacer. However, the test was nullified when we noticed the test bed substrate had cracked in the process. Because the re bar is distinctly oval shaped it is difficult to initiate the thread cutting and the nut only bites on a fraction of the circumference of the re bar.( we do not have access to a full range of die sizes The amount of work involved with this technique ( performed whilst dangling from a rope ) is probably not worth pursuing any further.
Another alternative is using an anchor puller/tester with a linkage clipped through a drilled hole in the sawn off staple. The siting of some of the staples on a thin edge profile of limestone would make the use of a tripod puller very difficult.
We have practiced sawing the staple off flush to the wall and treating it with antioxidant and covering it with grey anchor resin. Takes just minutes and is looking like the most realistic option at present.
I can assure everyone that I am not an engineer with any talent in this area of work. However, I am sure we can avoid making things worse by continuing to think things through and complete our experiments before tackling the offending items in KMC.
The original installer would love to be named and shamed on UK Caving and sell the film rights via his/her publicity agent, but I will not give him/her the satisfaction. There is no witch/wizard hunt required.
I like to think that we are able to keep a sense of perspective/proportion in our relations within northern caving.
Andrew Hinde
Chair CNCC.
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: droid on January 02, 2019, 03:30:50 pm
Rather surprised that Simon Wilson wasn't involved in this.

I might disagree with him on many things but I acknowledge his expertise in these matters.
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: malcolm smith on January 09, 2019, 09:56:48 pm
Had a trip to see them today. They look like ones that were/are in Dismal Hill.
I wasn't offended by them. Had to crane an ageing neck upwards to see them in the first place.
If they make the traverse, which I presume is intended as an emergency high water exit rather than an adventure climbing frame for more able cavers, a bit easier for less able cavers who find themselves in peril, I'd think fair enough.
It's a bit of cave used by the caving world and his/her dog so why not make the emergency high water exit a bit easier for the less able?
May well be wrong on the reason for their placement of course 🙂

Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Cave_Troll on January 10, 2019, 11:35:25 am
I assume they are actual via ferrata staples not just random bits of rebar and may well be stainless ?
if so then we'd not need to worry about them forming streaks of rust down the walls
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: langcliffe on January 10, 2019, 11:49:56 am
I assume they are actual via ferrata staples not just random bits of rebar and may well be stainless ?
if so then we'd not need to worry about them forming streaks of rust down the walls

You may well be right, but in the aforementioned CNCC minutes it says: "Matt Ewles said that this was more a conservation matter; they were not stainless steel and risk rust streaks developing on the cave wall below them over time."

To me, all lumps of steel look the same.
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Cave_Troll on January 10, 2019, 01:30:50 pm
i was wondering if they are actually not stainless or are they assumed to be non-stainless.

i wasn't arguing for or against their existence
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: marysboy on January 10, 2019, 02:00:01 pm
they had already started rusting last summer
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: langcliffe on January 10, 2019, 02:02:22 pm
i was wondering if they are actually not stainless or are they assumed to be non-stainless.

i wasn't arguing for or against their existence

Which is good, because I didn't respond to any argument for or against their existence.

I was simply quoting one reasonable reputable source which claims that they are not stainless.
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Cave_Troll on January 10, 2019, 02:51:04 pm
its odd.
looking at Raumer's website it seems their version is both stainless and galvanised perhaps to try to make them dull matt grey rather than too shiny
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: andrewmc on January 10, 2019, 03:02:39 pm
I assume they are actual via ferrata staples not just random bits of rebar and may well be stainless ?
if so then we'd not need to worry about them forming streaks of rust down the walls

I thought most via ferrata staples _were_ just bent bits of rebar... Stainless are available but would bankrupt many via ferrata installers, I suspect!
Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Cave_Troll on January 11, 2019, 11:24:05 am
they may have been once, but all the ones i've seen over the last 5 years conform to standards

see
https://www.raumerclimbing.com/eng/prodotti_clista.asp?cat=via_ferrata_stemples-pegs-handrails-metal_ladders&qi=0-21-0


Title: Re: Metal Steps KMC
Post by: Badlad on January 11, 2019, 04:13:13 pm
My understanding is that the staples in KMC were home made from standard rebar and painted before installation.