Author Topic: Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate  (Read 6393 times)

Offline Pete K

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Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate
« on: March 02, 2014, 06:14:32 pm »
On a visit to Jugholes today I tried to find a replacement bolt to fit the adit grill. Unfortunately all the spares I took with me were not compatible. Plan B was to photo the existing bolt and try to identify some likely contenders.
So, metalwork geeks of the caving world, can you help?


Jugholes Bolt by Peak Instruction, on Flickr

Jugholes Bolt by Peak Instruction, on Flickr

Jugholes Bolt by Peak Instruction, on Flickr

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Re: Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2014, 06:42:16 pm »
Could be a 3/4 BSW, but it is well worn.

What does the nut measure across the flats?

Metric bolts across flats measurements are:-

M8 - 13mm
M10 - 17mm
M12 - 19mm
M16 - 24mm
M20 - 30mm



Offline EwanCameron

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Re: Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2014, 06:45:47 pm »
Anyone know who put the gate in

Might be a good place to ask
Caving anyone ? Always up for a caving trip - Who the f&%k was sick in Eldon Hole ?

Offline Pete K

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Re: Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2014, 06:49:31 pm »
The nut is welded inside the door frame and it will be a complete rebuild to replace. I'd hoped to place a new modern thread setup but it will be serious work. The nut on the bolt already was not measured but I suspect a 30mm.
So M10 or 3/4 BSW to start with.
Thanks.

No idea about the gate Ewan, I would have thought that avenue was explored already when this problem cropped up last year. Perhaps not.

Offline JRL

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Re: Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2014, 07:11:03 pm »
Pete,

Go to an engineers merchant's or an engineering firm. The will have thread gauges and verniers to identify the thread pitch & size. This process takes seconds, once you've identified the thread yo can hopefully re thread the captive thread with a tap (not the ones which water runs from ) and fit a new bolt.
If I was 'down south' I'd identify it for you but I'm afraid I'm in the north.

JRL


Offline Pete K

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Re: Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2014, 07:22:23 pm »
Thanks JRL.
The captive thread looks good still. Guess I'll need to go back with a hacksaw to get the bolt off the chain. I'll Google an engineers locally.

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Re: Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2014, 07:24:56 pm »
Anyone know who put the gate in

Might be a good place to ask
It was me , 16 mm comes to mind but I can probably check in the morning.

Offline EwanCameron

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Re: Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2014, 07:26:23 pm »
Legend :)

Thanks dude
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Offline Pete K

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Re: Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2014, 07:36:23 pm »
Thank you Shotlighter!
Either post it up here or drop me a message to projects@thedca.org.uk
I'm aiming to get at least one job done in my first week! Good job on the gate and surround by the way, it's still solid.

Offline mmilner

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Re: Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2014, 08:03:49 pm »
post it up here or in a PM for the moment. I haven't had time to update the officers emails yet as I've been sorting out and acquiring a 'new old' cheap 2nd hand car! Will update them in the next few days...

Regards, Mel.
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Offline Pete K

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Re: Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2014, 08:06:46 pm »
No worries Mel, as I got the spreadsheet I figured we were all set up. Newby mistake!

Offline peterk

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Re: Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2014, 08:11:06 pm »
This is a table of bolt sizes http://www.britishfasteners.com/images/nuts_bolts_key.pdf and as the site title suggests the site is filled with info on obscure fasteners

Offline al

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Re: Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2014, 08:11:46 pm »
If it helps, I'll be seeing Shotlighter tomorrow night at the Crewe meeting. If Nigel can find a duplicate bolt, I can drop it through Pete's letter box on my way home to Hayfield.
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Re: Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2014, 08:18:47 pm »
If it helps, I'll be seeing Shotlighter tomorrow night at the Crewe meeting. If Nigel can find a duplicate bolt, I can drop it through Pete's letter box on my way home to Hayfield.
That one was specially made to be "chain captive" unfortunately but I have a piece of 16mm I can give Al so the size can be checked.
Alternatively I'll pop across next week end & have a look before making a new one?

Offline Pete K

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Re: Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2014, 08:59:26 pm »
Completely up to you Shotlighter. If you are happy to pop over with a new one I'd be very grateful but I'm happy to do the legwork if you want to pass something to Alan.
As for captive fitting, I had only thought of slipping new bolt on chain and then super tightening a nut onto it as a clamp. I doubted anyone would nick it as if they had a spanner they could get in anyway. If you are prepared and equipped to do a direct replacement then that would be great.

Offline nickwilliams

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Re: Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2014, 09:15:15 pm »
That's definitely not a Whitworth thread.

Plenty of different sized nuts and bolts to play with here in Hucklow if you need them.

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Re: Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2014, 09:20:56 pm »
Thanks Nick. As a back-up I'll bare that in mind.

Offline mmilner

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Re: Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2014, 10:16:33 pm »
Great to see everyone on this thread working together, as is usual for the Peak, tbh. Great to c u r now project officer Pete. I'd heard Dan was gonna step down months ago, so this is good news.

Keep up the good work all of you, we all appreciate it.  :thumbsup:

I have a few easy bolting jobs that need doing in the Manifold in the summer, (just to conform to with the BCA bolting program),  just wish I could have got to the meeting, but will bring them up at the next UCF meeting in June. Oh, and it seems Bob doesn't use his mobile any more so how are we supposed to contact him about bolting issues?

Regards Mel. DCA Conservation Officer / Webmeister.
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Re: Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2014, 10:18:50 pm »
Completely up to you Shotlighter. If you are happy to pop over with a new one I'd be very grateful but I'm happy to do the legwork if you want to pass something to Alan.
As for captive fitting, I had only thought of slipping new bolt on chain and then super tightening a nut onto it as a clamp. I doubted anyone would nick it as if they had a spanner they could get in anyway. If you are prepared and equipped to do a direct replacement then that would be great.
I'll pop Al a piece of 16mm so you can confirm the size please, if you're local.
It'll probably be a 16mm stud anchor like the one I made the original from.
If you just want to then find a suitable bolt & a couple of nuts to make a captive arrangement that's fine by me.
Otherwise give us the nod & I'll make one.
Cheers
Nigel
edit, just hope the welder still works - that gate may be the last time I used it!!

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Re: Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2014, 10:23:48 pm »
Thank you Nigel.

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Re: Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2014, 10:54:32 pm »
Oh, and it seems Bob doesn't use his mobile any more so how are we supposed to contact him about bolting issues?

On his landline number, that appears on the DCA Officers List. Wayne

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Re: Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2014, 07:41:05 am »

Great to see everyone on this thread working together, as is usual for the Peak, tbh. Great to c u r now project officer Pete. I'd heard Dan was gonna step down months ago, so this is good news.

Keep up the good work all of you, we all appreciate it.  :thumbsup:

I have a few easy bolting jobs that need doing in the Manifold in the summer, (just to conform to with the BCA bolting program),  just wish I could have got to the meeting, but will bring them up at the next UCF meeting in June. Oh, and it seems Bob doesn't use his mobile any more so how are we supposed to contact him about bolting issues?

Regards Mel. DCA Conservation Officer / Webmeister.

Mel if you need a lift next meeting leg us all know someone must pass by your area on the way
Caving anyone ? Always up for a caving trip - Who the f&%k was sick in Eldon Hole ?

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Re: Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2014, 11:31:00 am »
Mel if you need a lift next meeting leg us all know someone must pass by your area on the way

Got a 'new old' car now Ewan so should be OK, just hope it's reliable. Thanx for the offer though!  :thumbsup:
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Offline Pete K

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Re: Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate
« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2014, 06:47:28 pm »
Thanks Al and Nigel, I have the bolt and it looks spot on from my photos. Have found an excuse for another trip to Jugholes tomorrow so I will check it out and hopefully I can get a replacement sorted pretty rapidly after.

Don't forget to take an adjustable spanner on trips to Jugholes. You'll certainly need it again soon.

Offline Pete K

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Re: Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate
« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2014, 09:34:23 pm »
People always tell me that nothing on the internet ever disappears completely. So with that in mind, the correct bolt is an M16 2.0 80mm.
I shall PM you Shotlighter about a replacement.

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Re: Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate
« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2014, 10:44:21 pm »
People always tell me that nothing on the internet ever disappears completely. So with that in mind, the correct bolt is an M16 2.0 80mm.
I shall PM you Shotlighter about a replacement.

With that in mind, would it be a good idea to invest in a Project Officers notebook to list all these overlooked details?. For instance, does anyone know the threads on all the other "Derbyshire Key" access lids?, nut size is not a problem because a large adjustable spanner is advised, but replacements need to be thought about.

P.S. Well done Pete et.al., a very good example of the use of this forum to the good of all. Also a good example of the results of bringing young blood into the organisation :thumbsup:, keep up the good work ;)
« Last Edit: March 05, 2014, 10:58:36 pm by bograt »
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Offline Pete K

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Re: Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate
« Reply #26 on: March 05, 2014, 11:06:34 pm »
Thanks Bograt.
Oddly enough, I started a log last week when I first took up the position just so I would have a record of things if I or a future PO needed to look back. Great minds and all that..
I will certainly record anything relevant like you suggest.

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Re: Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate
« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2014, 07:51:27 am »
If someone can supply me with a list of bolt sizes (thread and length) I'll see what I can get from work. If you have spares to hand it makes replacement a doddle.

Also I might be in a position to help with steelwork reqirements as I work at a steel fabrication company.


Offline Pete K

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Re: Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate
« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2014, 08:10:32 am »
If anyone out there with knowledge of the Jugholes gate arrangement cares to share ideas about how a standard bolt could be used instead of a custom one I'd be grateful.
Currently the plan is to replace like for like but if there is a better alternative that will make replacement in the future a quicker option I am open to hear it.
One thing that crossed my mind was to use locktight or similar to glue in an 80mm piece of threaded M16 bar to the current nut on the frame. You then only had to put a nut on it to lock the gate shut. Yes a nut is easier to drop but it's not like it is a shaft. A nut would be quicker to replace and we could have a couple stashed inside? In the future a good pair of molegrips could remove the bar to replace it.
How does that sound?

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Re: Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate
« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2014, 10:22:30 am »
Another alternative would be to use threaded bar cut to length with a pair of nuts to hold the chain in place, the end nut could be a nylock with the bar riveted over to stop it unscrewing, the chain retaining nut could be loctited to minimise movement, maybe a couple of washers to help rotation of the chain?
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Offline Pete K

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Re: Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate
« Reply #30 on: March 06, 2014, 10:31:16 am »
If the chain is captive between two washers and nuts I can see it twisting up and it becoming a pain to spanner up the bolt.
I cannot see a way of keeping the chain free to rotate with a normal nut and bolt. If a 'trapping' nut is used to keep the chain at the end, when the bolt is tightened into place and then loosened repeatedly, there is a danger of the nut coming loose from its glued position is there not?
I'm keen to put a replacement system on that is easy to replace in the future. If you think Loctite may hold the chain nut well enough then I'm happy to just go out and do it today.

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Re: Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate
« Reply #31 on: March 06, 2014, 10:18:29 pm »
You could drill and tap the head end of the M16 bolt to take an M8 bolt. The chain could then be fastened to the M16 by the M8. It depends a bit on the size of the chain links.

Offline Pete K

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Re: Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate
« Reply #32 on: March 06, 2014, 10:34:38 pm »
A novel idea that.
Shotlighter has kindly offered to fabricate and replace the bolt. I'm sure he will pick up on any additional ideas via this thread.
Thanks for the email too Madness. All offers of support are gratefully received.

Pete Knight
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Re: Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate
« Reply #33 on: March 14, 2014, 02:57:31 pm »
Jugholes Mine nr Matlock
Please be aware that the replacement bolt for the Jugholes adit entrance is due to be fitted at some point over the course of this weekend (15/16th Feb).
Do remember to take a large adjustable spanner (Derbyshire key) to open the adit gate to the mine and please replace the bolt and spanner it tightly shut once all your party are in or out. Continued easy access to the site depends on the adit entrance remaining safely sealed from passers by. Always assume you will need to bring a spanner on this trip in the future as I believe it has been some time since one was deemed an essential item here.
Many thanks to those volunteers involved in the replacement.

Pete Knight
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Re: Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate
« Reply #34 on: March 14, 2014, 06:17:18 pm »
Or rather the 15/16th March!

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Re: Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate
« Reply #35 on: March 15, 2014, 11:46:12 pm »
Or rather the 15/16th March!

Sorry all but due to a "chain ring related leg infection" 😥 it will have to be next weekend instead. - Providing my leg doesn't fall off first!

Offline Jenny P

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Re: Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate
« Reply #36 on: March 19, 2014, 11:08:18 am »
Many thanks to Pete and Co. for solving the puzzle of the bolt size and getting the job sorted.  Several people had already tried to help - turning up with a handful of assorted bolts, only to find that none fitted so went away foxed. 

We'll make sure that word is put around that Jug Holes will now required a "Derbyshire Key" in order to get in or out via the lower entrance.

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Re: Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate
« Reply #37 on: April 05, 2014, 02:28:24 pm »
New bolt fitted today. Take a spanner, you have been warned!

Offline mmilner

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Re: Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate
« Reply #38 on: April 05, 2014, 03:56:46 pm »
New bolt fitted today. Take a spanner, you have been warned!

Now also posted on the DCA web site.  :thumbsup:
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Offline Pete K

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Re: Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate
« Reply #39 on: February 11, 2018, 09:31:07 pm »
People always tell me that nothing on the internet ever disappears completely. So with that in mind, the correct bolt is an M16 2.0 80mm.
I shall PM you Shotlighter about a replacement.
And thank goodness I did write that here because guess what? I've just heard the bolt has gone again. Anyone able to lay their hands on a spare?

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Re: Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate
« Reply #40 on: February 11, 2018, 10:27:00 pm »
People always tell me that nothing on the internet ever disappears completely. So with that in mind, the correct bolt is an M16 2.0 80mm.
I shall PM you Shotlighter about a replacement.
And thank goodness I did write that here because guess what? I've just heard the bolt has gone again. Anyone able to lay their hands on a spare?
I'll have a look & see what I have in the week.
The bad news is it might be the captive nut. The thread wasn't great on it 4yrs back, when I last did it.
Might be a bore & tap out to 18mm. In which case, I wont be doing it till the weather warms up!

Offline Pete K

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Re: Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate
« Reply #41 on: February 11, 2018, 10:30:08 pm »
That would be great, many thanks. Shout if I can do anything to help.

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Re: Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate
« Reply #42 on: February 12, 2018, 10:35:09 am »
The bad news is it might be the captive nut. The thread wasn't great on it 4yrs back, when I last did it.
Might be a bore & tap out to 18mm. In which case, I wont be doing it till the weather warms up!

Or epoxy in an M16 to M14 (or M12) reducer?
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Re: Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate
« Reply #43 on: February 12, 2018, 12:52:05 pm »
The bad news is it might be the captive nut. The thread wasn't great on it 4yrs back, when I last did it.
Might be a bore & tap out to 18mm. In which case, I wont be doing it till the weather warms up!

Or epoxy in an M16 to M14 (or M12) reducer?
Was toying with just epoxying in a 16mm stud & closing it with a 16mm nut. Ok they get lost eventually but are dirt cheap.

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Re: Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate
« Reply #44 on: February 12, 2018, 04:38:35 pm »
Any simple solution acceptable to DCA! If it's easy and cheap to replace, even better.

Offline nickwilliams

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Re: Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate
« Reply #45 on: February 12, 2018, 05:54:27 pm »
Shotlighter,

I've got some resin and the kit to use it if you need it. I'll have some bigger studding and nuts too if you want to go bigger than M16.
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Re: Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate
« Reply #46 on: February 12, 2018, 07:53:55 pm »
If for some unforeseen reason it does not work a new captive M16 stud could be welded to a replaceable plate which in turn is drilled to allow bolting to the existing angle iron frame - The frame would need drilling and tapping M8 or M10
If You have any problems I will be able to do this for you

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Re: Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate
« Reply #47 on: February 12, 2018, 08:34:36 pm »
Shotlighter,

I've got some resin and the kit to use it if you need it. I'll have some bigger studding and nuts too if you want to go bigger than M16.
Thanks Nick, I may be in touch!
I've found a couple of spare pins, so I'll pop across in the next week or so with one "for now".
Hopefully a new pin will give enough "bite" to last a couple of months until the weather improves & it can be done properly.
As you my recall, I'm not that mobile anymore & skating down that bankside in the mud & ice while juggling tools & walking stick, doesn't really do it for me!
Cheers
Nigel

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Re: Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate
« Reply #48 on: February 12, 2018, 08:47:53 pm »
If for some unforeseen reason it does not work a new captive M16 stud could be welded to a replaceable plate which in turn is drilled to allow bolting to the existing angle iron frame - The frame would need drilling and tapping M8 or M10
If You have any problems I will be able to do this for you
Cheers for the offer, but trying to keep it simple if possible.
Nice idea though & drilling a few 10mm holes through 10mm & tapping 'em sounds a lot better than trying to drill and tap an 18mm hole through 20mm.  :)
Only slight problem may be the door not closing fully, as I built it so the hasp sat flush to the frame.

Online crickleymal

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Re: Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate
« Reply #49 on: February 13, 2018, 08:51:26 am »
This is a table of bolt sizes http://www.britishfasteners.com/images/nuts_bolts_key.pdf and as the site title suggests the site is filled with info on obscure fasteners
Search results for 'images nuts_bolts_key pdf'
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Malc
Rusted and ropy, dog-eared old copy.
Vintage and classic or just plain Jurassic:
all words to describe me.

Offline Pete K

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Re: Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate
« Reply #50 on: May 18, 2018, 08:26:00 pm »
Hi again. Sadly Shotlighter is unable to help us on the ground with this fix. I wonder, is there someone out there, either local or with time to spare, who would be happy to pick this job up and sort it? Sounds like best case it's a new M16 bolt and nut to hold it on the chain. Worst case an approach like iwebb suggested.

Offline Pete K

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Re: Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate
« Reply #51 on: June 16, 2018, 08:08:55 pm »
Just to keep everyone in the loop, this job is mostly done now. Make sure to remember your spanner again! Awaiting info on nut size but I know it will be to fit an M16 thread, so I recon by the power of Google you'll need a 24mm spanner or adjustable.

Cheers to Ian Web for sorting this one for DCA.

Pete K
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Offline zomjon

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Re: Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate
« Reply #52 on: June 16, 2018, 09:02:09 pm »
I think it might already be sorted, looked to be earlier today, a nice new shiny bolt attached to the gate.

Offline Pete K

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Re: Help identifying a bolt for Jugholes gate
« Reply #53 on: June 23, 2018, 06:11:20 pm »
Confirmed today, the new captive nut is 27mm on an M16 thread.
Don't forget to start taking your spanners again!